It is like taking a vessel made from a gourd /
and filling it with butter to use as a lamp;
the flame burning, consuming /
will burn up the gourd as well.
The angry mind is like this; /
it turns on itself and burns one’s wholesome roots.
We should never harbor annoyance. /
Having sought out anger, disperse it.
Don’t be drawn in as if in a maelstrom, /
endlessly circling around.
And even if there is anger, abstain from harsh speech, /
not touching on topics that others wish to avoid.
Deeply respecting others’ wish to avoid such topics, /
we will never harm them.
Taking control of oneself /
is of great advantage to oneself.
Those without anger, without violence, /
those are noble ones.
They are disciples of noble ones; /
those one should always befriend.
Those with anger and hatred /
face an obstacle heavy as a mountain
But if, when there is anger and hatred, /
one can control oneself even a little,
then this is called good karma /
like the taming of an unruly horse.’”
So few to comment on the thread to make a reasonable reply that addressed the topic with a solid argument, and yet so many arguments leveled at the parties who didn’t break the guidelines!
Btw, do not make assumptions about the other mods ‘ideology’ based on me. They are verrrrry different. Which I think makes us a great team, although deliberations can take a while!
In my own defense, I am completely open to a diversity of opinions provided they are expressed in a grounded, respectful manner. I even ask questions and ask posters to expand if I think their perspective could be good and I want to know more. Even if this opposes my views! You can see this in the thread in question.
And yet, unfortunately, I hardly ever get the respectful, well reasoned response I’m looking for. Most of the time the response I get is the finger pointing, the 'liberal’name calling and usually the angry descent into violent opposition.
People honestly cannot get past the fact that some people are women, see them as genuine human beings worthy of dignity and self-determination, and move past that to answer the most basic questions in a reasonable and respectful way.
Because of this disgraceful attitude Ayya vimalanyani is leaving.
Sometimes I have the mind to leave too. So whose ‘varied’ perspectives matter and whose don’t?
And that’s a success of the disgraceful, and a loss for the community. Ayya @vimalanyani, please reconsider your decision. If people with something worthwile to say will leave so easily, this place will soon become desolate, with only few nerds talking about Pali declensions
Please! I am so very new here that I still have the packaging on, and I do my best to stay quiet until I know the feel of a place. Yet to hear that two people, and yes especially women since for me practicing females are rare, whose efforts I have found in even this brief time to be insightful and encouraging are leaving does cause some sadness.
I hope that in time the emotions, thoughts and all that have caused such disruption can be seen for what they are and released and the work can continue with loving-kindness and harmony.
Dukkha flavours everything until Release and we can only hope to see it, release it and go back to the task at hand as well as our conditions allow us.
I accept with love and respect whatever decisions are made, but I see good and wholesome opportunities if a way to stay could be found. Imperfectly said, I’m sure, but I hope my sincerity will fill in the gaps of my abilities to express myself here.
Typed with as much honest love as an imperfect being can muster. Metta
Is it possible to post all hidden or flagged post here in this topic so we all can see what Santa’s concern about? I still haven’t seen those flagged or hidden posts.
Without them, we can not make a reasonable reply that addressed the topic.
This action is taken instead of a full ban. However it is seen as the ‘equivalent’ just with less view of ‘no redemption’.
We clearly state in the guidelines in which case a ban will be enacted
In this case, the users actions fit.
The reason for this ‘harshness’ is that the moderators job is exceedingly difficult. We all have jobs. We all have other responsibilities. Yet over the last 48 hours we’ve all had to sit here for prolonged periods of time clearing flags, putting out fires, etc. we need to have higher guidelines to appeal to to save our energy and time. For 99.9% of the users here, it will never affect them, because they have the intention of following the guidelines.
I do fully understand your point. Just showing you why we made that decision in case it helps.
Venerable sir, I will not leave for now. Gratefully to you, you inspire us. But it is not just a cloud. Sometimes feels like cloud after cloud.
As for what any user chooses to do: leave or stay, that is their choice. I will support if it’s based on what right. This is not an easy environment sometimes.
Ultimately I will place my safety and the safety and joy of my mind above all this, and I would want the same for others too. When I look after myself, I have joy in my mind, and that is essential for meditation and release as we know, the most important things!
I really hope that Ayya @vimalanyani reconsiders. I’ve really enjoyed her contributions to the forum. I may not have always agreed with her point of view but I found it refreshing to see them aired in an open and eloquent way.
As for the way things are flagged and moderated here; if I feel something should be flagged I will review the community guidelines first to check that it’s not just an emotional reaction. I hope that others will do the same.
I missed the 2nd half of the ‘thought experiment’ thread but the tone of one or two posters was becoming aggressive when I left. People had already requested that a kinder tone was used. So I will assume that posts were then flagged because this was ignored. One of the lovely things about SC Discourse is that it doesn’t turn into a slinging match. Personally, I’d like it to stay that way. There are many other forums where people can go to inflate their sense of self. I’m here to help mine disappear.
Let us all self govern ourselves by the Noble Eightfold Path and Right Speech. If we are being divisive, we are not following the Dhamma. The Dhamma is sufficient to moderate us all if we follow it earnestly.
Taking things personally is quite honestly a personal problem and this is where Right Intention comes in, the intention of renunciation and good will. Taking things personally is by definition holding on. Dwelling on he/she did or said this is antithetical to the Buddha’s teachings. However, I’m not supporting anyone using harsh speech.
My point is, I have not used my time wisely by reading all this back and forth. My efforts would be more wise directed reading suttas and contemplating them or meditating. Right speech is also a direct practice and that involves the person who speaks harshly and, in my opinion even moreso, those who hear any harsh speech.
The Buddha said anger is a gift that we can choose not to receive afterall.
We should be careful as idle chatter is something to be avoided by all of us who wish to practice the teachings in any purity and for that end.
I’m afraid you’ll always be disappointed if you hold that expectation. Like it or not, an element of the social world is that of nastiness. Even the Buddha wasn’t exempt from being treated nastily, so we should definitely not expect any difference on an internet forum. The difference here is that the forum environment and atmosphere is curated to some extent by the moderation, by their action/inaction and posts. But even the most pristine gardens will get weeds from time to time.
I agree with this.
If I was the moderator or admin I would have given hin two weeks suspension to cool him down a little bit.
Santa was not a repeat offender and he was a great contributor.
Doesn’t SC have some guideline for the suspension procedure?
(such as the duration of suspension)
Buddha had the compassion for Angulimala who killed thousand people.
Great powers come with great responsibilities. The level of your compassion shows the level of your power.
I just want to note that although one of the remarks that earned santa community disapprobation was a rather course insult directed at me, I am not one of the people who flagged him. Nor did I communicate with anyone else here to register a response - just in case anyone is wondering. I generally prefer to deal with those kinds of remarks directly, publicly and individually. But I can well understand why others would respond very differently.
But this is a part of the deal and we already knew it right? Ven. Sujato already knew that this will be challenging but he did it, moderators know it is hard but they do it, others, including me, hesitated before even participating but here we are. And it is generally working, and quite well. No! This is a success story so far, and if you and ayya @vimalanyani leave it won’t be any more. That’s why I forbid it!
It doesn’t mean I’m not hearing your frustration. I’m really sorry for all this. And I think you would be happy if you knew how much I appreciate you, @Aminah, @anon29387788, and also others whose indispensable (& also exhausting) work is going on more silently in the background, like ayya @Vimala and others whom I don’t even know. I’m sure the great majority of participants here have similar feelings and appreciation to all of you, and I invite you to reflect on this. Also ayya @vimalanyani I’d say she’s one of the most popular and appreciated members here, no exaggeration. So please think about how frustrating for others it will be if you depart one day. Haven’t you seen the lovely response by friend @Stacey above?!