Getting Enlightenment without help from enlightened one, is it possible?

As I know, the two lowest states of noble people are faith follower and dhamma follower. Can I be one of them without the help of an enlightened one?
As a normal person, I don’t have the ability to read other’s mind, to know if he is enlightened or not :smiley:
I also don’t have a job, so I don’t have enough resources to meet real sangha in real life, just listening video or reading books.
Should I find a job first then meet real sangha in real life, or Can I practice without hearing direct Dhamma?
I need an advice. Tks for help! <3


I’d recommend doing an online meditation retreat with Bhante Yuttadhammo:

You’ll first need to read his meditation instructions and then sign up for online interviews at the link above.

Best of luck!


“Monks, there are these two conditions for the arising of wrong view. Which two? The voice of another[1] and inappropriate attention. These are the two conditions for the arising of wrong view.”

“Monks, there are these two conditions for the arising of right view. Which two? The voice of another and appropriate attention. These are the two conditions for the arising of right view.”—AN 125-6

“The voice of another” is mostly reading these days, and that covers theory. The practical work has to be done by the individual themselves, that is appropriate attention.


Do you practice appropriate attention by meditation only or go out to talk with people?

Appropriate attention is taking steps along the path. Every situation, both internally and externally presents a choice to employ either inappropriate or appropriate attention, like a forked road.

"The Blessed One said, “Monks, the ending of the fermentations is for one who knows & sees, I tell you, not for one who does not know & does not see. For one who knows what & sees what? Appropriate attention & inappropriate attention. When a monk attends inappropriately, unarisen fermentations arise, and arisen fermentations increase. When a monk attends appropriately, unarisen fermentations do not arise, and arisen fermentations are abandoned.”—MN 2

The practitioner should not spend too much time externally, or the mind will become ‘externally scattered.’ Maintaining a balance comes under the third foundation of mindfulness.


One needs to see & associate with a noble person to be a noble person. Any of the 8 types will do, but finding & associate with the highest one will accelerate your path and understanding faster.

A common folk has not seen and associated with other noble persons. He/she will remain a common folk.

It is not possible to become awaken just by reading. If it is, there has been many noble one in this world. If someone say otherwise, maybe they haven’t understand.

The quote from sutta such as MN 2 and many others:

Take an uneducated ordinary person who has not seen the noble ones, and is neither skilled nor trained in the teaching of the noble ones. They’ve not seen good persons, and are neither skilled nor trained in the teaching of the good persons. They don’t understand to which things they should pay attention and to which things they should not pay attention. So they pay attention to things they shouldn’t and don’t pay attention to things they should.

But take an educated noble disciple who has seen the noble ones, and is skilled and trained in the teaching of the noble ones. They’ve seen good persons, and are skilled and trained in the teaching of the good persons. They understand to which things they should pay attention and to which things they should not pay attention. So they pay attention to things they should and don’t pay attention to things they shouldn’t.

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Any of the 8 types will do

I really mean one of 8 types, not only the arahant.

It is not possible to become awaken just by reading.

What is the different between listening or reading indirectly and associate with a noble one?

And the last problem. How do you know if some one is noble one :smiley:

Good question. There is in Sutta that mentioned it. When your mind is focused on hearing the true teaching (4 Ariyan truth). The five hindrances are not present and the 7 awakening factor is fully developed at that time. Then one can enter the stream or even higher awakenings. Hence it is needed to hear the true teaching.

when reading, your mind might just not focus. You may think other things etc.

If one associated with noble person, don’t you think they will change in term of their behavior? Hence they can become a noble one as well.

Then one needs try to become one and seek one. Sutta gives many example how. :grin:

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Thank for your answer.
I have one more question.
Do you think the noble one can customize the teaching for different kinds of people or they just follow what the Buddha teach?
It relate to the ability to discern the true teaching with worldly talk. Sometime I hear some normal talks between people but it’s some how related to my own story, so I don’t know if they are trying to teach me something by using metaphor.

The difference is in what you believe is more ‘real’. Maybe you think that a good book or lecture is more dhamma per minute than managing to go to a retreat, or monastery stay in person. Or, maybe you think that an in-person encounter will inspire you more because you’ll see the many fascinating small aspects about the conduct of the noble person which cannot be captured by a book or recording.

Also, there is a chance that in person you might get a personal response to your questions, and personalized instructions are potentially much more valuable to your progress than publications which are always born out of circumstances, or tailored towards another person.

You don’t. You go by hearsay, rumors, or personal convictions. None of it is reliable and you might change your assessment over time. Usually a satisfying way to go is to ask people you look up to who they consider to be noble ones. And then you take it from there, check their dhamma and see if it resonates enough for you to become their follower and maybe see them in person.

But again, you can forget about 100% validity of the assessment about a noble person. To feel certainty is good for inspiration and faith, but feelings or conceptions do not reliably indicate truth.


Of course. Teaching of Buddha is personalized for each individual. Each individual has different characters/ behavior/ culture/ upbringing/ faculties, etc. But to enter the stream, it is only one way as I mentioned above.

A noble person will teach from their own direct experience. This direct experience will correlate to Buddha or other noble devotees experience as well. Hence, you will find why each noble devotees has unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma, Ariya Sangha, and morality that loved by other nobles that lead to samadhi. Nobody can convince them otherwise to change religion, etc.

As long as one has an open minded and want to change, there is a hope to become a noble one. A close minded person will be difficult to teach, hence Buddha and their noble devotees will try to avoid.

Nowadays, the teaching of Buddha has become sort of one size fit all for mass. Everyone needs to sit/walk to meditate. In my opinion, this practice is just silly especially for a wise person. A wise person has a very calm & focus mind, there is no need to sit. They just need to hear true dhamma, then in no time they will become noble.

Also, if you don’t accept the current translation of buddha teaching, then you have a wrong understanding. But if you read Sutta, this is not the case. The knowledge will arise when you meet certain conditions.

Also, If you read Sutta, many folks can become noble by talking & having conversation with Buddha or other noble devotees. For example, Ven. Sariputta become stream enterer after hearing a sentence of teaching from Ven. Assaji. And many more.

This is a good way of changing your characters. To relate others to your own experience, then change to become good.

Same things with Buddha teaching. How can you relate Buddha experience or other devotees/nobles experience to your own? So, you also become like one of them. Once you realize this, then you know this is the only way to become happy/joy. This is what it mean of getting Samma Ditthi (common translation: “Right View”).

Lastly, Buddha teaching is not about Right or Wrong. It is about what can be done/practice now. Can you let go of bad behaviors and cultivate good behaviors? Hence you can become happy/joy all the time like all the nobles one.

Hope this help.

If you want to hear about stream enterer, maybe this video from Late Ven. Dhammavuddho will help a bit.