I have been wondering about the significance of nibbana as an end goal on the spiritual path. It is easier for me to understand some people wanting to get liberated from rebirth in a situation where rebirth is part of their actual cultural cosmology. But in the case where rebirth isn’t inherently part of one’s cultural cosmology (the social and cultural world one has been socialized into), then how can the meaning of enlightenment be grasped for such a buddhist practitioner? Is it simply freedom from suffering? Freedom from the attachment with the self view and identity view? Liberation from defilements?
It seems to me that Buddha’s teachings don’t necessarily require someone to have a firm belief in rebirth, since in the DN9 Buddha states that what he teaches as certain (declares) is only those things conducive to spiritual life (4 noble truths), while the categorical & metaphysical propositions such as eternity of the cosmos, relation of soul and body etc. are not conducive to spiritual life and hence not the core of his teachings.
But the question remains, what is it that one ought to be aspiring for if freedom from rebirth isn’t necessarily the ultimate goal?
It is a good question, people can aspire for different goals and it can depend on cultural background as you say. On topic of rebirth - most of us cannot personally say that we lived before - we have no proof for it - however such missing proof would not be as big a problem as doubting whether there is afterlife or not. Why is that? Because if there would not be afterlife - there would be no result of good and bad deeds - it would negate spiritual practice. But since there is afterlife and result of good and bad deeds - many spiritual teachings teach what is skillful. You will find this argument both in Suttas or in Bible.
Now what kind of qualities could one aspire to? For example the ones listed below:
From Suttas:
Purity of conduct - blameless conduct, knowledge, overcoming sadness, grief, discontent, desire and not having it overcome one. Forgiveness, not having regrets. Abiding in metta, karuna, mudita, upekha. Peace. Giving up arrogance, conceit and thinking highly of oneself.
Living mindful (of body, feelings, heart, dhamma) and aware (of thoughts, feelings, perceptions).
MN151 lists many qualities one is to check is they are present or make effort and train.
And then there is heaven.
From Bible:
Many of the above qualities, abiding in love, heaven, truth (as in the quote “truth will set you free”), faith and knowledge of the one God (the one who repays beings according to their deeds), faith in Isho (Christ). Aspire to obtain the promises made from above.
After a dhamma teaching by Bhikkhu Bodhi, someone asked, “what is Buddhism, in a nutshell?” His reply was concise and kind:
“I would say, to put it very, very simply, it’s understanding that there are two fundamental aspirations of human life. One is to avoid suffering, the other to find happiness. And I would say that there are causes that underlie suffering and causes that underlie the achievement of happiness. And so I say the essence of the Buddhist teaching put very very concisely is discovering and understanding the causes of suffering in order to overcome those causes, to avoid them. And understanding the causes of happiness, the means to happiness, in order to cultivate those causes and develop them. And thereby not only to avoid suffering for oneself, to achieve happiness for oneself, but also to enable one to avoid imposing suffering on others and being able to impart happiness to others. So to benefit oneself and to benefit ones others in the highest way.”
Nibbana is liberation from suffering. ‘Birth’ & ‘death’ read to be types of attachment. I read in SN 12.66 and at the end of MN 130 that death is caused by attachment. As an example, if there is the view: “my mother died” (which causes sorrow, grief, suffering & despair) this reads to be attachment & internal & external self-view of “me” and “mother”. Both “me” & “mother” read as though they are self-views. I recall reading towards the end of MN 140 those without self-view have no birth & no death. Also, the word ‘jati’ does not mean ‘rebirth’. It means ‘birth’. There is no ‘re’ found in ‘jati’. The Buddha must have used ‘prefixes’ or etymology with precision.
The N8FP is kamma that is neither white nor black. The teachings on rebirth have to do with kammic efficacy - regardless of the type of kamma in question. Without kammic efficacy, the N8FP would not work.
The end is established upon attaining the path, beginning with maximum seven lives for the first stage of noble attainment. Ending white and black kamma would not work if white and black kamma do not lead to good and bad destinations.
a sane and wise person, will aspired for : freedom from :
-association with the disliked ,; (SN 56.11)
-separation from the liked ; (SN 56.11)
-Not getting what you wish for (SN 56.11)
-the five grasping aggregates …freedom from being a bearer of the burden. (SN 22.22)
just one life time existance while carrying those burden we already encountered countless dramas, griefs, ( just reflecting one life existence)
how abt the endless kalpas, one have to go through endlessly , again and again >>???: ( hollymolly ) enough !!
the simile of milk of mother,bones you left behind, the countless tears, the blood,…
dont you have enough ??? wont you find way for your own release >? emancipation,??
and
lastly
-freedom from making of kamma.
each karmas, good,bad or neutral , all of them give rises to respective fruit., with each durations of fruit, resultants.
Even for good karma eg Heavenly realms, they are not eternal, they are subject to Anicca,Dukkha,Anatta, it has expiry dates, once it hits expired time, one has to keep doing good karma,it again and again in order to obtain the heavenly happiness,
(For time being we still need good karmas to made life more bearable through wandering in Samsara, and its conducive as supporting factors towards our quest in learning-practicising Dhamma).
Thus consider all of the dangers above…
Enough friends, do not be headless,Dhp 167-178
made haste now, :
the Eight Noble paths has been proclaimed by Buddha, Let us Learn and practice now,
I’ve been thinking on this recently. May Bhikkhu Sujato live long and prosper, but eventually he will pass. Perhaps in a future life he reaps fruit due to his work with Sutta Central (it makes me happy to think that he would). Regardless of that though, many current lives benefit and other future lives will likely benefit from his work. In other words, the results of good and bad deeds may also affect lives other than the individual who performed them (both in this life, and the next). That’s sounds similar to the Christian ideas of ‘do unto others as you’d have them do unto you’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself’.
Much like this quote…
(I’m not saying I’ve reached that point, in fact I definitely have not. I can imagine it though). Also, I’ve heard a monk on this forum say pretty much exactly what you said, so it’s probably the orthodox view.
Regardless of an afterlife, regardless of what that looks like for anyone, imo, you live a spiritual life anyway because it’s nice to be nice, it’s good to be in control of yourself and not malleable by others, it sucks to be an a-hole and harm others, ….and you have to sleep with your own conscience- right here, right now.
I think one can also recognise in Dhamma, Buddha, Sangha what is pure.
I have come to see there is nothing more important for the welbeing of ourselves, others and this world then to see what is pure. This domain that is not strategical, without conceit, not about self-interest, in which doing good is not a strategy for getting this or that in return.
The world or 1. does not see this, 2. or thinks it can do without. But that will lead to misery.
Pure deeds are not infected with notions of self or things belonging to self. Such as narcistic ideas as: I am wise. I have wisdom and love. Buddhism is not meant like this. It is not meant to become richer but it is meant to see how rich we are in our emptiness, in letting go, in having no attachment to views, to dogma, beliefs, to rules and rituals, to whatever. This is our real wealth, Nibbana. And Buddha guides us to our real wealth.
The mundane mentality is that wealth lies in accumulating, in having, in amassing but the holy life of the Buddha is based upon the knowlegde that our wealth is Nibbana, letting go, relinguising of all acquistions, detachment.
Having full trust in this, i feel is, really having faith in the Three Jewels and really taking refuge.
I very much like the perspective to realise Nibbana because one sees that this is really the Path to serve ones own, others, the worlds welbeing.
There is so much bagage with us (7 anusaya) . And when investigating this bagage, how does it really serve one or others welbeing?
Seeing the beauty, the wealth of letting go and being empty-hearted. Seeing the wealth of not relating to others in a conceited way, for example, never as the wise person relating to the ignorant. Seeing the wealth in abandoning all this artificial conceited behavior that in the end is not really serving any ones welbeing. Seeing the wealth of being free from the past. Seeing the wealth and beauty of being not strategical, not a trademan in doing good. Seeing the wealth of being simple, poor in mind, very poor. Nibbana is the ultimate wealth of an ultimate poverty. One will only grow in conceit if notions grow that one possesses wisdom, insight, love, compassion and starts to relate to other people (or beings) this way.
All wisdom, knowledge and vision, in Dhamma has only one goal…to drop the conceit that one is wise and knowledagble or loving and compassionate. This does not mean that one becomes stupid but one becomes free, empty, and can relate to everything and everyone in a direct, not conceited way and THAT is wise and loving.
And yet, it might be somewhat different to intellectually understand and accept the concept of rebirth (or cycle of rebirths), than to wholeheartedly relate to such a principle as a lived reality, also supported by the beliefs and expectations of others who matter to you. Hence, the spiritual motivation or intention to be liberated from the cycle rebirths might resonate differently with varyingly positioned individuals.
So one way to define the goal might be: to be free from suffering/ to find happiness. That’s very (universally) relatable I think. But could it be that such a goal is only applicable to some extent on the Buddhist path…? Maybe at some point you’ll establish sufficient contentment with life as it is (experienced as “I have arrived, I have found happiness”), and yet you might not be nowhere near the stream entry.
I think the key to this statement is not that you will find happiness, but that the result of your freedom from suffering is that others will not be harmed by your actions and will benefit from your meritorious behavior. The simple goals of ending suffering and achieving happiness require the all encompassing work of the eight fold path. It all intertwines.
I like to share some ideas i have about the role of culture:
There is a list of right views in the suttas: There is what is given and what is offered and what is sacrificed; there is fruit and result of good and bad actions; there is this world and the other world; there is mother and father; there are beings who are reborn spontaneously; there are in the world good and virtuous recluses and brahmins who have realised for themselves by direct knowledge and declare this world and the other world (MN117 and others)
We might say that IF one is born in a buddhist culture, one probably has such right views, right? The idea of rebirth, kamma, nobles, other realms, might be just as normal for someone born in buddhist culture, then the idea of God for people born in Christian culture or muslim culture.
But what does that mean for those living in buddhist cultures? That they are not deluded? That they are all sotapanna now with having all this right views? Are they wiser and more loving people then those raised with the idea of God, heaven, Jesus?
I feel this cannot be said.
What does it really mean that someone in a buddhist culture has accepted, has faith, has no doubt in all these views they are raised with? Is one now on the Path to Enlightment, just because one is born in a buddhist culture and has the same general view on life then Buddha had?
Do not think so. It cannot be like this.
It are called mundane right views and this needs to be distinguished from supramundane right view. (MN117)
One needs supra mundane right view to be on the Path and i believe this has nothing to do with culture, raising, belief, education, place of birth, indoctrination.
I do not want to say that the sutta’s suggest that these views of rebirth, kamma, etc are merely handy/ No the suttas really teach that there IS rebirth and kamma etc…but i only want to say that having such views is not the same as having the right view that makes an end to suffering.
These mundane views of life often function in a mind that is still heavliy defiled, for example, it is still very much involved in conceiving, in me and mine making, in conceit. That list of right views does not mean at all that there is no delusion anymore. It is not really wisdom of course. The sutta says, these rights views are… affected by taints, partaking of merit, ripening in the acquisitions (MN117)
But supramundane right view is… noble, taintless, a factor of the path. (MN117)
So, it might be very helpful to be born in a buddhist culture and have these meritorious views on life, but:
it does not say one is not heavily defiled and deluded;
that one is even on the Path
that people in other cultures cannot be on the Path
Thank you for your reply. It sort of reminded me of (SN 1.46):
“‘The straight way’ that path is called,
And ‘fearless’ its destination.
The chariot is called ’unrattling’,
Fitted with wheels of wholesome states.
The sense of shame is its leaning board,
Mindfulness its upholstery;
I call the Dhamma the charioteer,
With right view running out in front.”
This verse was quite agreeable for me to read, as it seems to depict the development of spiritual life almost by itself (…kind of like meditation?). However, this description doesn’t necessarily translate well as an explicit goal for an aspirant’s spiritual endeavour. But maybe another question could be proposed instead: after a certain point (acquiry of right view? something else?) is a specific goal for spiritual life actually even needed? Then maybe it really is enough to be intent upon renunciation, good will, and harmlessness.
When one of my loved ones passed away many years ago, I remember the (Christian) priest saying something like: “One’s heaven is found in the hearts of those who love them.” I find this idea somewhat similar to the view that we are being blessed by our (right) actions, proposed by Ven. Dhammavuddho during one of his talks. In that sense, Bhante Sujato indeed must be very greatly blessed by his vast and meritorious endeavours and good actions. It’s really quite touching how he and his monastic companions have made a difference in so many people’s lives. May we all be as selfless and benevolent in our endeavours.
Agreed. I also find it fascinating how clear and relatable many of the sutta teachings are even though they originate from such a different time and place. Although I don’t know how much of this transmitted clarity results from the process of translation.
Why not? “Renunciation, Good will, and Harmlessness” is a pretty specific goal to me: the removal of the tendency of the mind towards that very greed and hatred which are the underlying cause of harmfulness. How is that not “an explicit goal?”
For a person free from remorse, there is no need for an act of will, ‘May joy arise in me.’ It is in the nature of things that joy arises in a person free from remorse.
Ideally this if based on right view, which includes a recognition of rebirth and kamma. The eightfold path is in it’s order because each is a basis for the next.
Without right view people can think that if they manipulate their world just right then they won’t suffer. Even if that ‘manipulation’ is being friendly, kind, compassionate and ethical. If this works for you in this life; great. However, you are still subject to the unagreable people, natural events, old age, sickness and death. This is all still suffering Then you are reborn, and it’s another lifetime of social ‘snakes and ladders’, old age, sickness and death. So it’s much better to make the bet (MN60) that their is rebirth, and then one is practicing both for the ending of suffering in this life and the ending of suffering which would result in being reborn.
There is no ‘re’ found in ‘jati’. The Buddha must have used ‘prefixes’ or etymology with precision. 
