"Going Forth – for Liberation" by Ajahn Candasiri

The Watercooler
73

Agree.
This remind me of:

"It’s just as if a man were wounded with an arrow thickly smeared with poison. His friends & companions, kinsmen & relatives would provide him with a surgeon, and the man would say, ‘I won’t have this arrow removed until I know whether the man who wounded me was a noble warrior, a brahman, a merchant, or a worker.’ He would say, ‘I won’t have this arrow removed until I know the given name & clan name of the man who wounded me… until I know whether he was tall, medium, or short… until I know whether he was dark, ruddy-brown, or golden-colored… until I know his home village, town, or city… until I know whether the bow with which I was wounded was a long bow or a crossbow… until I know whether the bowstring with which I was wounded was fiber, bamboo threads, sinew, hemp, or bark… until I know whether the shaft with which I was wounded was wild or cultivated… until I know whether the feathers of the shaft with which I was wounded were those of a vulture, a stork, a hawk, a peacock, or another bird… until I know whether the shaft with which I was wounded was bound with the sinew of an ox, a water buffalo, a langur, or a monkey.’ He would say, ‘I won’t have this arrow removed until I know whether the shaft with which I was wounded was that of a common arrow, a curved arrow, a barbed, a calf-toothed, or an oleander arrow.’ The man would die and those things would still remain unknown to him.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.063.than.html

74

Well, it’s certainly not just you! In a sense, the Vinaya should be a barrier: it should deter anyone who is not serious.

But for serious candidates who happen to be women, the barrier is not the Vinaya, which is there to support your holy life. The barrier is the sexist patriarchy, which abuses the Vinaya to create obstacles for women.

That is a reality, a painful and difficult one. But here’s the thing: if it wasn’t Vinaya, it’d be something else. The real agenda of sexists is to exclude women from what they see as the male preserve. Since the Vinaya is available, they use that. If the Vinaya wasn’t there, they’d fall back on “tradition” or “women’s nature” or “kamma” or whatever else. Which is why, even though the supposed Vinaya objections to bhikkhuni ordination have been repeatedly refuted, it has made precisely zero difference to the attitudes or actions of the patriarchs.

The good news is, the mainstream patriarchy in Theravada is so dysfunctional and spiritually bankrupt that you can just ignore it.

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75

Could there be a connection between refusing the establishment of a bikkhuni order in Thailand, and the effect it could have on the, from what I’ve heard, prevalent sex industry? For instance, if disadvantaged girls had the choice to become a monastic, rather than prostitution, could that be an underlying motivation for the continuance of this seemingly nonsensical course? Meaning, if women were given equal access to resources, as well as respect from the laity, making a monastic life much more attractive than the other choices a woman could make to earn a living, is there some fear that it would impact the male supporters of the Sangha because they would not have such a wide choice of people to exploit when there grasping for pleasure gets the best of them?

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76

Hmm uncertain about that one. Someone said temporary ordination prevalent in Thailand maybe diluting the sangha of serious monks and eventually corrupting the monkhood. In Sri Lanka the problem might be ordaining due to poverty.

77

Yes, but this seems to have been the case since the very beginning of the Sangha. By going through the origin stories of the Vinaya Rules as recorded in the Bhikkhu Vibhanga one sees examples of all sorts of misuses and exploitation of the Bhikkhu status.

The fact we have records of whole sub-segments of the Sangha having as heads very corrupt and crazy monks (aka the Group of Six) at the same time the Buddha was walking around and helping individuals awake on the spot should serve as a lesson that just like with other things in life, things may not have been better in the past.

78

There is a record of a very frank conversation among senior monks in Bangkok regarding ordination, and this is one of the major issues. The problem they expressed is that, given that there are estimated to be twice as many sex workers as monks in Thailand, if bhikkhuni ordination were to be available, these women and girls would soon find they had other options, and would join the Sangha in large numbers.

This would mean that there would likely be soon more nuns than monks in Thailand; and they pointed a worrying finger at the situation here in Taiwan as an example of what can happen when things get out of hand, with four times as many nuns as monks.

The notion that it would be a good thing for women to have options other than sex work was not a part of the conversation.

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79

So what is wrong with that? Are there problems in Taiwan as a result?

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80

Oh, no it’s terrible. There are nuns who are actually running monastic colleges—would you believe it! They are independent and educated, and seem to think they can make their own decisions. :scream: They even go so far as to say that Buddhist ethics should apply to helping people, and sometimes even animals and the environment, too! :anguished: There’s a nun who runs a world-wide charity, others who speak up for same-sex marriage, :male_couplekiss: and others who spend their time in meditation and retreat. :poop:

Some people—misguided, foolish people—might see what is happening and see it as evidence that a vital, modern Buddhism actually requires a healthy female Sangha. Goodness knows where that could end up! :rolling_eyes:

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81

An alternate solution, then, would be to offer ordination to the sex traffickers, who I assume must be males, though I might be mistaken. I think they would jump at it as who wants to work as a sex trafficker- it must be a terrible field to work in- no pay rise, poor dental plans etc.

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82

Protectionism is a common features of all ‘professions’. I wonder if the Taiwanese monks are practicing monks and not professional ones, if you know what I mean?

best wishes

83

On a serious note- what do you think about child ordination? Psychologically I see the person stuck with parental rejection for the rest of their life. Apart from ordaining to save lives or destitution, I see no reason to ordain young children. However you could argue whether it is better to grow up under abusive parents (who love them enough to give them away- more alcohol anyone?), or parents so poor that they see a better life for the child they can’t afford, in the sangha. I would have though there are processes and procedures in place for this?

with metta

84

You know, that isn’t really true here in the US. Of course it depends on what you mean by “mainstream patriarchy”, but here the face of Theravada monasticism is Ajahn Sucitto, Ajahn Amaro, and a few other Ajahn Sumedho disciples. Their monasteries seem to be quite successful (the ones in the US and Canada, at least) and receive unbelievable financial support - mostly from Asia. Ajahn Sucitto is the most beloved and in-demand dharma teacher, lay or monastic, who teaches in the US, as far as I can tell. And (IMHO) the dharma he is putting out is extremely beautiful and inspiring.

Most of the people who come on retreat at BCBS and IMS have no idea at all that bhikkhuni ordination is not available and supported by that lineage, and most of the financial support from westerners to western monastics goes to them as well.

For me, at least, the barriers to bhikkhuni ordination have been first, not knowing there were bhikkhunis, then not having the opportunity to stay with, or get to know any of them, and now that I do know some, seeing how hard it is for them to get enough support to practice and follow the discipline.

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85

I think it’s probably true that we don’t have to look past simple patriarchy, and its associated sexual divisions of labor, to explain the attitudes. My observation, based on my admittedly limited experience, is that female lay followers tend to do a lot of the work around the monastery. They do most of the cooking and indoor cleaning. They bring the flowers and arrange them. Maybe the bhikkhus are worried about what happens when many of these women have joined their own monasteries.

The women also supply a lot of the “venerating”, and some monks who have grown accustomed to, and are not yet free from the allurements of, that kind of routine ego gratification, might be worried about what happens when these pious woman have the option of seeking spiritual fulfillment in some other way than merit-making by bowing before a male monk. And for the male lay followers, what happens to their egos when they have to bow before a female monk?

Perhaps some of the men in these cultures where Bhikkhuni ordination has disappeared are worried about this kind of freedom:

Thig 1.11 Mutta

So freed! So thoroughly freed am I! —
from three crooked things set free:
_ from mortar, pestle,_
_ & crooked old husband._
Having uprooted the craving
that leads to becoming,
_I’m s_et free from aging & death.

Thig 2.3 Sumangala’s Mother

So freed! So freed!
So thoroughly freed am I —
_ from my pestle,_
_ my shameless husband_
_ & his sun-shade making,_
_ my moldy old pot_
_ with its water-snake smell._
Aversion & passion
I cut with a chop.
Having come to the foot of a tree,
I meditate, absorbed in the bliss:
_ “What bliss!”_

Thig 5.2 Vimala

Intoxicated with my complexion
figure, beauty, & fame;
haughty with youth,
_ I despised other women._
Adorning this body
embellished to delude foolish men,
I stood at the door to the brothel:
_ a hunter with snare laid out._
I showed off my ornaments,
and revealed many a private part.
I worked my manifold magic,
laughing out loud at the crowd.

Today, wrapped in a double cloak,
_ my head shaven,_
_ having wandered for alms,_
I sit at the foot of a tree
and attain the state of no-thought.
All ties — human & divine — have been cut.
Having cast off all effluents,
cooled am I, unbound.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/thig/index.html

Despite the hurdles, I have faith that good will and compassion for the well-being of others will win out in the end!

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86

Hi Suravira,

Not to be argumentative, but what you’ve listed is just a tiny minority of Theravada Monasteries in the US (or elsewhere in the West).

87

Hi Mike,

True. I’m being very culturally narrow, aren’t I? But to the people I know - the folks coming to retreats at IMS, Spirit Rock, and other lay centers in the US, those are the monasteries they really know about, and the monastics they know. I don’t know whether other US monasteries are dysfunctional and spiritually bankrupt or not - except I don’t think Bhavana Society would be with Bhante G there.

My point was that I don’t think we can ignore them. They have enormous influence.

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88

Might I just say that in the West, bhikkhunis are supported far less than bhikkhus.

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89

What’s always been troubling for me is the fact that the evidence of the Bhikkhunis from the time of the Buddha is just so obvious, or at least it should be painfully obvious to any serious student of the early texts. As much as one may rightfully respect some of the Bhikkhus that were mentioned above, it is always painful to listen to them, at times, answer questions about the propriety and need for modern Bhikkhuni ordinations. The responses involve such seemingly disingenuous verbal gymnastics, that it’s painful to watch.

I get that much of the support for these monasteries comes from Thailand, and there is real caution on the issues of Bhikkhunis because of this fear of crossing up the Thai Sangha. I get the motive, and the defenses. Yet, as these Ajahn Chah bhikkhus are well trained, academically accomplished, (some of them) and very knowledgeable on the history of the Buddha’s life and the original Sangha, it’s just beyond the pale for them to brush aside Bhikkhuni ordination as something that is akin to resurrecting woolly mammoths from old DNA. Sadly, we may see woolly mammoths roaming the west before we see a fully established Fourfold Assemblies catasso parisā. I trust that won’t be the case.

History is a great teacher. At one time in the US (not so long ago), there were “White entrances” and “Colored entrances” in restaurants, and white only hotels. This practice was accepted, and few really dared to challenge it. Now, we look back, and see how damaged, cruel, and wrong that view was. The Ajahn Chah tradition bhikkhus should be leaders on this issue, they know better, but are seemingly still on the path of least resistance. Ajahn Chah had old school courage and a willingness to say and do what he thought right, but that courage seems to me missing somewhat these days.

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90

Hi Suravira,

Yes, certainly if you’re talking about that circle of people, the Western Ajhan Chah Group, and a few other people, are the ones that are well known. And, as you say, Bhikkhuni’s are not particularly visible there (not that they are more visible in the SE Asian Monaseries of course!).

As I said here: Phalañānī Bhikkhuni, Women's Day - #5 by mikenz66 In over ten years of Dhamma contact I’ve only every had a serious conversation with one Bhikkhuni, and I had to travel up a mountain in Thailand in an ancient Hilux to do that…

You mean the Western Ajahn Chah Bhikkhus? They obviously do have tremendous influence in the Western circles you mention, and those I’ve met have been very helpful to me.

And they do seem to be widely respected outside Western communities. When Ajahn Tiradhammo http://www.dhammagiri.org.au/ajahn-tiradhammo-biography.html (who lived in New Zealand for a time a few years ago) visited my local Thai Wat and gave a talk in Thai he was very well received by the Thai lay people, who do recognise the Ajahn Chah brand. However, Buddhist monasteries fall into many, many, independent groupings, and it’s not clear that there is any particular influence between those groups, apart from mutual respect.

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91

I was speaking of the officially sanctioned hierarchy in Thailand, authorized by the Saṅgha Act, with its leaders appointed by the King; the Sri Lankan nikāya system; and similar bureaucracies in other Theravadin countries. Few people in the west even know that these things even exist, still less, that the monks who you cite enforce their anti-bhikkhuni policies supposedly based on allegiance to them.

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92

The whole idea of a state religion seems rather alarming to me - and for a group of westerners to feel constrained by someone else’s state religion is bizarre. I can’t help feeling that it comes down to a sad lack of, um, guts.

But on the plus side, Ajahn Sucitto and some of the others invite bhikkhunis to teach with them and that helps to raise awareness and support for them.