"Going Forth – for Liberation" by Ajahn Candasiri

@Deeele, your comment is offensive and degrading to women. We are not all conceited attention seekers, just like every man is not necessarily violent, etc.

Please reconsider.

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Well I think this is some thing like the tenth precepts. (Monks are not allowed to handle money)
I never heard any monk was punished for handling money.
Perhaps it is a minor rule so leave it as it is.
But be mindful that there is a rule.
Pondering too much of these issues can affect your concentration.

Well, of course ‘punishment’ isn’t really a concept in the fulfillment of the Vinaya, as most rules (with the exception of the Pārājika and Saṅghādisesa) only entail confession. This is also the case for the rule on handling money:

Should any bhikkhu engage in various types of monetary exchange, it (the income) is to be forfeited and confessed.

I don’t really understand this sentiment.

It may be not acceptable but may be avoidable. Just associate with either bhikkhus who do not care about; either bhikkhus who are good and deserve that, or even better, just do not associate with no bhikkhu at all. By this way a bhikkhuni would only have to bow to a bhikkhu once in her life (i.e. when she is ordained and the bhikkhu sangha properly/formally acknowledges her status as a bhikkhuni).

Now, all that said, what is the problem people nowadays have with bowing?? I heard once a fellow saying he considered that outrageous!

To me, bowing is like handshaking, hugging, etc - just a social norm which do not hurt but as well do not benefit no one, and if the case, can be abandoned/discarded.

LOL true!
Well, I have no problem with bowing - except that I maybe do it too much, which some here could attest to :blush:

You know, “not acceptable” is perhaps the wrong word choice in hindsight, because you know, sometimes you don’t get a choice as to whether you ‘accept it’ or not. I’m not sure what the right word is, but I think you get my point :smile:

I get it, but the reality is that for some Westerners, maybe due to their cultural background and/or life traumas, the act of bowing is sometimes seen as offensive as it is for Asians to have someone younger than you touching your head! I am happy to have no problem with that!

At the same time, it is noteworthy that wherever Buddhism went to in Asia (from Sri Lanka to Japan), the norm of bowing was happily accepted and sometimes improved. In Japan bowing can occur in many increasing degrees of respectfulness, and in Thailand laypeople tend to bow almost on a lay down fashion to highly steemed Bhikkhus and royal family members.

I wonder to what extent the practice of bowing could be pointed as a cause for Buddhism to not "stick"in ancient Western cultures such as Greek, Roman, etc.

Last but not least, I am quite sure that the whole bowing involved in the Islamic daily prayers is definitely linked to the same ancient roots that the Buddhist bowing is. I can totally imagine that if we were to travel back in time to pre-islamic Mecca we would see people from all corners of the ancient Arab world bowing to each one of the hundreds of gods/idols that were worshiped there!

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In Buddhism, because of having only monks, most monks act as priests. That angligan monk should take a minute and contemplate when will there be female priest in the christian tradition. Especially in the orthodox one.

Also, monks and nuns live segregated in the christian tradition not to disturb one another. And in the Heychast tradition of orthodox christianity (witch is a hardcore ascetic tradition) - womans are not allowed even to visit Mount Athos. They are not allowed even to step foot inside. And we are speaking about a rich, western country.

As for the problems in buddhism, I too agree that the problem is overestimated and it has to do a little with political and cultural conditioning. I would like to see this kind of effort made for the stopping of mass slaughtering animals because of the “releasing animals” tradition. That would be infinitely more important in my opinion and would have a huge chance of succeeding in a very fast time.

And maybe this opinion of yours is influenced by the fact you are male :wink:
Being a male, it is quite easy to say that “the problem is overestimated”.

You’re sexist :smiley:

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Ah, but @SarathW1 I have not eliminated Mana. Sigh.

I think it is about more than mana, however. In Asia I have seen that sometimes it is about access to adequate nutrition and suitable lodging. And even in the west it is sometimes about access to teachers and training, opportunity for retreat, and for those who have developed and have wisdom to share it can be about opportunity to teach. The last may not be a disadvantage for the nun, but rather a loss for the community.

Not being fully enlightened, I find seeing women who have devoted their lives to awakening and who have come to a point of being respected and cherished by their communities unbelievably encouraging and energizing. It is like having been hiking up a mountain carrying a very heavy rock, and then being able to put down that load and continue without it.

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So what are you saying is all above is denied for a monk because she is a female?
That is bad, but is this only for female? How about male monks from other sects? A monk said Theravada monk cant get much help from a Mahayana monk. Or one sect (say Ajhan Chaha) does not reacognise the other.
But again what is this got to do with bow down?
Is this a problem some thing like Broken Buddha?

Are we talking here bowing down or prostrating?
I remember people making big news about Obama bowing to a Saudi king.
Is this some thing similar bowing to queen?

It is about formal seniority - you bow to your seniors. All monks even if they have been ordained for 1 day are senior to all nuns - even one ordained for 20 years. Resources are allocated according to seniority. So if there is not enough food the monks in front get it all.

Bowing is of course a beautiful form.

Can’t we just admit the whole custom is manifestly ridiculous, without all of the pious excuse-making? The Buddha might have had good reasons for implementing such a rule 2500 years ago, because he didn’t want to scandalize the sensibilities of the deeply patriarchal society in which his original mission was embedded, where every woman was socially assigned to the protection of some male patriarch or other. But this custom simply no longer makes sense.

Yes, the Buddha’s teaching sanely advises people of all kinds to forego being offended, angry or resentful, no matter what kind of aggression or injury one experiences - even being sawed in half! But that doesn’t mean that we should do nothing about stopping the aggressive, injurious and ignorant practices themselves.

The very idea that a learned, spiritually cultivated and mature woman of many rains should be the “junior” to even the most half-witted and inexperienced boy monk, in our century, is a supremely silly idea, and lacking in any rational basis.

That a woman might have the equanimity and patience to endure this silliness without complaint is very good for her. By the same token, it is good for the peace of mind of a dog that it can endure its leash without complaint. But that doesn’t mean we would look with unconcern on humans being subjugated to a leash, and by the same token we should not look with unconcern on women as a class being subugated to the entire order of monks.

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I have seen many monks think that Vinaya is out dated.
This is why Buddha said that there are minor rules which can be ignored.
It is for individual to decide what is a minor rule.
As I said I know many monks handle money even if it is against the tenth precept.
(This is the only think I can see as a lay person)
May be it is a minor rule for that monk. But I know some monks strictly adhere to the rule and do not handle money.
In my opinion not handling money and bowing down rule is very important Vinaya rule.

Well if any senior monk does not share the resources s/he is not suitable to be a monk.

I think every monk should strive to attain Sotapanna state at least.
Otherwise it is a waste of time.
It is a missed opportunity if a monk does not strive for Anagami.

The problem here is people don’t understand what an “orthodox tradition” means. I live in an orthodox christian country and do understand it. It’s a country just like theravada ones only that it’s christian.

Look, in an orthodox tradition, the nr 1 virtue one can have is been ultra-conservatory. Their whole sense of holiness is taken from the fact that they preserve the “pure teachings” uncorrupted, from the fact that they never change a thing. Just take a moment to think what this means and how such people end up been after a couple of decades. Just imagine having the nr 1 virtue you are trying to cultivate been conservatism. You will really end up having this virtue after a while. Believe me, you will be amazed if you never saw such people before.

And knowing how priest around here are, I can not be more happy that theravada monks are the same. It is exactly in this kind of people hands that I would put the dhamma. It is exactly this type of people that are the best guardians of the dhamma that can exist. I am amazed that they even managed not to let “true self” ideas or maybe “bodddhashita” or other idealist ideas slip into theravada. Look at the Thai Forest tradition witch are of a modernizing variety. They haven’t even started been a tradition and already they believe in a true self and in eternal consciousness. This is what happens when modernist came around. They might bring good things but in the end they corrupt the dhamma and end up like Mahayana - miles away from what Buddha taught.

Sure an “orthodox mentality” has it’s flaws such as ridiculously clinging to useless rules. But it is exactly this type of mentality that made it possible for us to have the teachings today. So please show a little more understanding towards them. If they would be quick to allow bhikkhuni ordination, they would already be believing in a true self and all kinds of mahayana stuff.

And you know what is great ? No matter what other might do, no matter how much they might complain, nothing will change. I know very well how this type of people are. I guarantee nothing will change. Never. Never ever. Never ever ever. The bhikkhuni ordination are just a small collateral damage that comes because of this orthodox mentality that managed to preserve the dhamma to this day. And already they are relatively accepted at least in Sri Lanka and in the west.

Having said all this, it’s good to have a pragmatic mentality and understand how things work. If you take a moment to understand how things work, you will be happy the dhamma is guarded by such people. There are no other people in this world to witch I would give the dhamma to guard it.

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Nahhhhh. What about anicca? :grin:

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It applies to everything else in this universe except the orthodox :smiley:

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