Going Forth When Married

Yes, according to the Vinaya Atthakathā:

Sace dve atthi, dvepi āpucchitabbā.

“If both exist [i.e. are alive], then leave must be obtained from both.” — Vin-a. v. 1011

But the atthakathā also gives a number of exceptions. Here’s a translation I made of it some years ago. We can see that articles 11 and 12 offer two ways of getting around the rule, though I’ve never heard of anyone actually attempting it.

(1) Here, the phrase “from his mother and father” was said in regard to the man and woman who conceived him. If both are living, then leave must be obtained from both of them.

If the father or mother is deceased, then leave must be obtained from [the parent] who is still living.

Even if they have themselves gone forth, leave must still be obtained from them.


(2) When obtaining leave, he may either go and obtain it himself, or may send another person, saying to him, “Go to my mother and father and having obtained their leave come back.”


(3) If he says, “I am one who has obtained permission,” he may be given the going forth if it is believable.


(4) A father has himself gone forth and wishes his son to go forth; having obtained leave of the mother, let him go forth; or, a mother wishes her daughter to go forth; having obtained leave of the father, let her go forth.


(5) A father, not concerned for the welfare of his wife and son, runs away. The mother gives her son to some monks, saying, “Let him go forth.” When asked, “Where has his father gone?” she replies, “He has run away to disport himself.” — It is suitable for him [the son] to be given the going forth.

A mother has run away with some man or other. The father gives [his son to some monks, saying], “Let him go forth.” The principle in this case is just the same as above.

The Kurundī* states: ‘A father is absent. The mother gives her son permission, saying, “Let him go forth.” When asked, “Where has his father gone?” she replies, “I shall be responsible for whatever is due to you from the father.” — It is suitable for him [the son] to be given the going forth.’

[* Kurundī: one of the Sinhalese commentaries most frequently cited by Buddhaghosa as the source of his Vinaya exegesis.]


(6) The mother and father are deceased. Their boy has grown up in the company of [relatives] such as his maternal aunt. When he is being given the going forth, his relatives start a quarrel or criticize it. Therefore, in order to stop the quarrel, he should obtain their leave before being given the going forth. But if given the going forth without having obtained their leave there is no offence.

They who undertook to feed him in his childhood are called “mother” and “father”, and with respect to these the principle is just the same as above. The son [is reckoned as] one living dependent on himself, not on a mother and father.


(7) Even if he be a king, he must still obtain leave before being given the going forth.


(8) Being permitted by his mother and father, he goes forth, but [later] reverts [to being a householder]. Even if he goes forth and reverts seven times, on each occasion that he comes [to go forth] again he must obtain leave [from his mother and father] before he may be given the going forth.


(9) If [his mother and father] say: “This [son of ours], having reverted and come home, does not do any work for us; having gone forth he will not fulfil his duty to you; there is no point in him obtaining leave; whenever he comes to you, just give him the going forth.” When [a son] has been disowned in this way, it is suitable for him to be given the going forth again without even obtaining leave.


(10) He who when only in his childhood had been given away [by his mother and father, saying], “This is a gift for you; give him the going forth whenever you want,” may be given the going forth whenever he comes [to ask for it], without even obtaining leave.

But [a mother and father], having given permission [to their son] when he was only in his childhood, afterwards, when he has reached maturity, withdraw their permission; he must not be given the going forth without obtaining leave.


(11) An only son, after quarrelling with his mother and father, comes [to the sangha, saying], “Let me go forth.” Upon being told, “Come back after you have obtained leave,” he says, “I’m not going! If you don’t let me go forth, I shall burn down your monastery, or stab you with a sword, or cause loss to your relatives and supporters by cutting down the plants in their gardens, or kill myself by jumping from a tree, or join a gang of robbers, or go to another country!”

It is suitable to let him go forth in order to safeguard life. If his mother and father then come and say, “Why did you let our son go forth?” they should be informed of the reason for it, saying, “We let him go forth in order to safeguard life. You may confirm this with your son.”


(12) Then, [one saying] “I shall jump from a tree,” has climbed up and is about to let go with his hands and feet. It is suitable to let him go forth.


(13) An only son, having gone to another country, requests the going forth. If he had obtained leave before departing, he may be given the going forth.

If he had not obtained leave, having sent a young monk to get [the parents] to give their leave, he may be given the going forth. If it is a very distant country, it is suitable to just give him the going forth and then send him with other bhikkhus to inform [the parents].

But the Kurundī states: ‘if [the country] is far away and the way to it is [across] a great wilderness (or desert), it is suitable to give him the going forth, [thinking], “having gone there [later] we shall obtain leave [of the parents].”’


(14) If a mother and father have many sons and speak thus: “Venerable sir, may you give the going forth to whichever [one] of these boys you choose,” then having examined the boys, he may give the going forth to the one he chooses.

If an entire [extended] family or an entire village is given permission [by someone, saying], “Venerable sir, may you give the going forth to whichever [one] of the boys in this family or this village you choose,” he may give the going forth to the one he chooses.

(Samantapāsādikā. v. 1011-12)

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SuttaCentral
The one living in the community by theft

At that time there was a certain man from a good family who had been brought up in comfort, but whose entire family had died. He thought, “I’ve been brought up in comfort and I’m not able to make any money. How can I live happily without exhausting myself?” And it occurred to him, “These Sakyan ascetics have pleasant habits and a happy life. After eating nice food, they sleep in beds sheltered from the wind. Perhaps I should just get myself a bowl and robes, shave off my hair and beard, put on ocher robes, and then go to the monastery and live with the monks?” And he did just that.

When he came to the monastery, he bowed down to the monks. The monks asked him, “How many rains do you have?”

He said, “What does ʻHow many rains’ mean?”

“Who’s your preceptor?”

“What’s a preceptor?”

The monks said to Venerable Upāli, “Upāli, please examine this person.”

That man then told Upāli what had happened. Upāli told the monks, who in turn told the Buddha. He said,

“Anyone living in the community by theft should not be given the full ordination. If it has been given, he should be expelled.

Now it’s either if your parents die you can’t ordain or if you are unemployed you can’t ordain or maybe others bhante ?

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@Ratana, you are mistaken about the meaning here, it has nothing to do with parents being alive or dead, or getting permission from them.

Rather, the problem here is that this person “ordained” himself (rather than getting ordained by a preceptor) which is why he is said to be living in the community by “theft” — because he stole his ‘ordination’.

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“Anyone living in the community by theft should not be given the full ordination. If it has been given, he should be expelled.

Now he is a thief even after he has been given full ordination so I don’t think he steal the ordination

So he steal something before given full ordination and still a thief even after being ordained I think maybe because he is unemployed

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No, it is because he was deceptive in taking high ordination. The monk in question just dressed up as a monk. This is the theft. If he then sought and received high ordination (upasampada), once his deception was discovered he should be expelled. And if his theft/deception is discovered before he receives high ordination, then it should not be given to him.

The Vinaya must be read very carefully so as not to come to erroneous conclusions.

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Bro In the story the guy doesn’t seek ordination and I don’t think it makes sense that any guy who pretends to be a monk will seek ordination, I mean what’s the value of ordination to them they already get almsfood even without ordaining ?

It’s much more reasonable to infer that because in fact he is unemployed thus he steals from the community, he doesn’t do his duty to himself and community by working

And it makes more sense for an unemployed to want ordination because he doesn’t have food and he wants food

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What @Snowbird said is the thing I learnt in Vinaya class.

Anyway, you’re looking at the issue too narrowly @Ratana.

Say there’s a fake monk (there’s plenty in China and India, who just use robes to beg for money, wear robes only in the public, change to lay cloths at home etc), didn’t know Buddhism, ordained himself, no one knew. After some time, he encountered the Dhamma, read the Vinaya partially (but not this rule), got remorse, wishes to get proper ordination. Then he changed back to lay cloths, request for ordination. After he got ordained, he sits in Vinaya class, and when it comes to this rule, he was shocked to discover that this means him! So he had to admit and got disrobed.

Another possibility is that a 30 year old novice monk claimed to be a monk of 6 vassa old when going to a new monastery to get higher up in the line for alms food (novice monks has same robes, same bowl), not having studied the Vinaya properly before. He lived like this for sometime, when back to his old monastery where the monk who gave him the going forth knows he is a novice, then ordains there, then read the vinaya. Unfortunately, he realised that he violated this rule cause he stole the higher ordination when he only has the going forth. He has to disrobe.

This rule can be dangerous, I wouldn’t recommend any actor (who wishes to renounce one day) to even play the part of a monk in a film to avoid this danger. Of course, strictly speaking, it’s not theft cause everyone knows it’s acting.

And it does curb the pride of novice monks for the various rank privileges that fully ordained monks has but novice monks don’t.

Also, it doesn’t matter if he is employed or not, parents alive or not etc. This rule is about self “ordaining”. Like pretending to be a Christian monk without going though baptism and their christian ordination.

That’s part of the reasons one way to identify Buddhist cults is to see if the leader self ordain or got some linage or at least can name their preceptor.

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If you study the Vinaya, there are countless times when the final formation of the rule includes factors and aspects not included in the origin story.

Of course I have no idea what your background is, but in any case, as I said, if you are interested in the Vinaya I recommend you dedicate yourself to a full study under a good teacher. Otherwise it is possible to come to many erroneous conclusions.

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Yes I think I have wrong view bro, thanks for the dhamma!

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The Sāmaññaphalasutta was a really inspirational read, thank you for sharing @Gabriel_L

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https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/English-Texts/Buddhist-Legends/06-09.htm

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Could you spare a few words to explain why you shared this please?

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My apologies if I breached decorum. I didn’t say anything, first, because I joined the thread rather late, and the discussion seems to have moved on from the question of the ethics of leaving a wife (or, possibly, husband) and child(ren) in order to ordain; second, because I was afraid my interpretation of what is to be done in such a conundrum may have come across a bit harsh or extreme; and, lastly (also, more importantly) I didn’t want to offend anyone who may themselves be ordained, especially as I personally have not demonstrated that level of commitment. So, I gave only a single sutta reference and left it at that. But, to add on…

  • A common trope leveled against the Buddha/the Samgha was the accusation that they broke up families: this didn’t seem to bother him/them in the slightest.

  • The Buddha/the Samgha was accused of taking food from people who were themselves stricken with poverty/hunger; again, this seemed to bother him/them little to none at all.

  • Albeit semi-apocryphal, the story goes that the Buddha, in an actual demonstration of breaking up a family, took his former wife’s only son from his mother and grandparents.

  • On the same occasion, the Buddha seems to have tricked/shamed his already betrothed half-brother (the son of the very same couple whose grandson he had just taken) into ordaining–for all intents and purposes, against his will.

And, in the original Dhammapada story link I posted above, I think we should keep in mind two things:

  1. First, the story is recounted and touted as a success only because the husband and, more importantly, the abandoned wife and boy all became arahants. What if they hadn’t? What if the latter two hadn’t ordained? What about the doubtless countless families where the abandoned family members didn’t ordain, and even bore ill will against the Buddha/the Samgha?

  2. Also, this story makes no mention of the assured hardships this family endured in between the father’s ordination and the son’s. (A span of 20 years?) Are we to assume, then, that it wasn’t hard? Well, why, then, didn’t the authors mention it?

I believe it was because it was of no consequence whatsoever. When you have had countless lifetimes of unspeakable suffering to endure (Mt. Sineru), who will stop to calculate the hardships cause by your dad leaving (a fingernail of dirt)?

“Especially when you have the good conditions of being born in the time and place of the Blessed One!? And you don’t ordain? Well, then, what can be done for you?”

As I see it, that’s the mentality of the the Buddha/the Samgha in all those situations. That’s the only way their actions make sense to me. “Nibbana! Nothing else matters!”

I have a wife and children; but as far as worrying about leaving them, if I was struck by a car and killed tomorrow, how could I stop that?

Again, I have not ordained. But, it’s because I’m weak, not out of concern for anyone.

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I think we should consider this sutta which clearly said that child or wife doesn’t matter thus answering the original post

Ud1.8
So I have heard. At one time the Buddha was staying near Sāvatthī in Jeta’s Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika’s monastery. Now at that time around Venerable Saṅgāmaji had arrived at Sāvatthī to see the Buddha. His former wife heard that he had arrived, and went to the Jetavana, taking their boy.

Now at that time Venerable Saṅgāmaji was sitting at the root of a tree for the day’s meditation. Then his former wife went up to him and said, “I have a little child, ascetic, so please provide for me.” When she said this, Saṅgāmaji kept silent.

For a second time she said, “I have a little child, ascetic, so please provide for me.” For a second time, Saṅgāmaji kept silent.

For a third time she said, “I have a little child, ascetic, so please provide for me.” For a third time, Saṅgāmaji kept silent.

Then she put down the boy in front of Saṅgāmaji, saying, “This is your child, ascetic. Provide for him.”

But Saṅgāmaji neither looked at the boy nor spoke to him. Then his former wife went a little distance away. Looking back, she saw Saṅgāmaji ignoring the boy, and thought, “This ascetic doesn’t even want his child.” She returned to pick up the boy, then left. With clairvoyance that is purified and superhuman, the Buddha saw how Saṅgāmaji’s went back for the child.

Then, knowing the meaning of this, on that occasion the Buddha expressed this heartfelt sentiment:

“When she came he was not glad,when she left he did not grieve.Victorious in battle, freed from chains,that’s who I call a brahmin.”

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Hi! I found following reference in Vinaya about Yasodhara and Rahula.

https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book/vinaya-pitaka-3-khandhaka/d/doc227837.html

SuttaCentral has this text, translated by venerable @Brahmali.

The specific section in the link you shared is #41

https://suttacentral.net/pli-tv-kd1/en/brahmali

:anjal:

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