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Gold and silver is not money?

money
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#1

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#2

Hi, rajata is defined thus in the Vinaya, Nissaggiya Pacittiya 18:

Rajataṃ nāma kahāpaṇo lohamāsako dārumāsako jatumāsako ye vohāraṃ gacchanti
Rajata means: a kahapana (= “dollar”), a coin of copper (or simply “metal”), a coin of wood, a coin of lac, whatever is used as a medium of exchange.

So the definition fits closely with what we call “money”, hence the translations.

The ordinary meaning is, of course, “silver”, but words are flexible and have different meanings in different contexts. In this case, we are fortunate to have a clear and unambiguous definition to show us that, in the context of what is forbidden for ascetics, all forms of “money” are included.


#3

For SN 42.10 and AN 4.50, it has been translated as gold and silver in Indonesian:

“Jangan berkata begitu, tuan-tuan. Emas dan perak tidak diperbolehkan bagi para petapa pengikut putra Sakya; para petapa pengikut putra Sakya tidak menyetujui emas dan perak; para petapa pengikut putra Sakya tidak menerima emas dan perak. Mereka telah melepaskan permata dan emas; mereka telah meninggalkan pemakaian emas dan perak
~ SN 42.10

“Ada beberapa petapa dan brahmana yang menerima emas dan perak dan tidak menghindari menerima emas dan perak. Ini adalah kekotoran ke tiga dari para petapa dan brahmana yang karenanya beberapa petapa dan brahmana tidak bercahaya, menyala, dan bersinar.
~ AN 4.50

But generally the gold and silver here include money because they had been used as tools of exchange in the Buddha’s time, and as Bhante @sujato said above, money is also forbidden for ascetics, especially Buddhist monks.


#4

Agree.
Even Bit Coin or plastic cards may considered as silver and gold and anything used as a exchange medium.


#5

I think this text can explain about gold and silver…

… “Jika emas dan perak diperbolehkan bagi siapa saja, maka lima utas kenikmatan indria juga diperbolehkan baginya. Jika lima utas kenikmatan indria diperbolehkan bagi siapa saja, maka engkau dapat memastikannya sebagai seorang yang tidak memiliki karakter seorang petapa atau pengikut putra Sakya.” … (SN 42.10)

Apakah emas dan perak rasanya enak? Kan enggak… So how did these sensual pleasures derive from gold and silver? “Dibelanjakan” is it? :smile:


#6

Must not slander Buddha. Leave the original free of intrepratation as long as the words “GOLD and SILVER” is still exis

Mahacundasutta AN.10.24 gives us an evidence that there is four (4) medium of exchanges, not only one medium of exchange acceptable in the Buddha’s age, these are : 1. Dhanaṃ (Money) 2. Dhaññaṃ (Grain) 3. Rajataṃ (Silver) 4. Jātarūpaṃ (Gold).

"Seyyathāpi, āvuso, puriso daliddova samāno aḍḍhavādaṃ vadeyya, adhanova samāno dhanavāvādaṃ vadeyya, abhogova samāno bhogavāvādaṃ vadeyya. So kismiñcideva dhanakaraṇīye samuppanne na sakkuṇeyya upanīhātuṃ dhanaṃ ((DHANAM) vā dhaññaṃ ((DHANNAM) ) vā rajataṃ (RAJATAM) vā jātarūpaṃ (JATARUPAM) vā. Tamenaṃ evaṃ jāneyyuṃ: ‘daliddova ayamāyasmā samāno aḍḍhavādaṃ vadeti, adhanova ayamāyasmā samāno dhanavāvādaṃ vadeti, abhogavāva ayamāyasmā samāno bhogavāvādaṃ vadeti.

“Suppose a poor, destitute, and needy person claims to be rich, affluent, and wealthy. If, when he wants to buy something, he cannot pay with MONEY, GRAIN, SILVER, or GOLD, they would know him as a poor, destitute, and needy person claiming to be rich, affluent, and wealthy.”
[/quote]


#7

Changing “GOLD AND SILVER” into "MONEY is not acceptable because You slander Buddha by doing that.


#8

At one time the Buddha was staying at Rājagaha in the Bamboo Grove, the squirrel sanctuary. At that time Venerable Upananda was associating with a family from which he received a regular meal. Whenever that family obtained food, they put aside a portion for Upananda. And that’s what they did when one evening they obtained some meat.

The following morning one of their children got up and cried, “Give me meat!” The man said to his wife, “Give the Venerable’s portion to the child. We’ll buy something else for the Venerable.”

On the same morning, Upananda dressed, took his bowl and robe, and went to that family, where he sat down on the prepared seat. The man of the house approached Upananda, bowed down to him, sat down to one side, and said, “Yesterday evening, Venerable, we obtained some meat, and we put aside a portion for you. But then in the morning our child got up and cried, ‘Give me meat!’,
and we gave your portion to the child. What can we get you for the sum of a kahāpaṇa?”

“Are you giving up a kahāpaṇa coin for me?”

“Yes, Venerable.”

“Then just give me that kahāpaṇa.”

After giving a kahāpaṇa to Upananda, that man grumbled and complained, “Just as we accept money, so do the Sakyan ascetics.”

Monks heard the complaints of that man, and the monks of few desires … complained and criticized him,” “How can Venerable Upananda receive money?

After criticizing him in many ways, they informed the Master. … “Is it true, Upananda, that you did this?”

“It’s true, Master.”

The Buddha rebuked him: “… Foolish man, how can you receive money?
This will not give rise to confidence in those without it … And, monks, this training rule should be recited thus:

‘If a monk takes, gets someone else to take, or consents to gold and silver being deposited for him, he commits an offense entailing relinquishment and confession.’”

https://suttacentral.net/en/pi-tv-bu-vb-np18


#9

Please change the word “MONEY” into “GOLD and SILVER”. Check the CANON, Jataruparajata is “Gold and Silver”. I don’t think you understand my point yet.


#10

If you read the origin story of the rule and see the definition of the rules there, it is clear that money is included in the rule:

Definitions

A: whoever … Monk: … The monk who has been given the full ordination by a complete Order through a formal procedure consisting of one motion and three announcements that is unchallengeable and fit to stand— this sort of monk is meant in this case.

Gold: the color of the Teacher is what is meant.

Silver: a kahāpaṇa coin, a copper māsaka coin, a wooden māsaka coin, a resin māsaka coin; whatever is used in commerce.

Takes: if he takes it himself, he commits an offense entailing relinquishment and confession.

Gets someone else to take: if he gets another to take it, he commits an offense entailing relinquishment and confession.

Consents to […] being deposited for him: if someonesomeone: ? says, “Let this be for you,” and he consents to it being deposited for him, it becomes subject to relinquishment.


#11

So, you don’t see my opinion about there is 4 medium and exchange in Buddha age and not one? So, So, I ask you that you think you have right to alter JATARUPARAJATA (GOLD and SILVER) based on your SMART Interpration ? Why don’t you use the original Buddha words, GOLD AND SILVER for JATARUPARAJATA . Do I wrongly point you the Buddha words and must use your intrepration. Buddha words please, not your ianalysis.

Answer me, what is “JATARUPARAJATA” stands for ? GOLD and SILVER. Why don’t you use the original one?


#12

Yes, we used the original meaning of gold and silver in the suttas quoted above, but for Vinaya rules, you cannot say that the Buddha prohibited only gold and silver for monks so that they can use money…


#13

Do you know we changed the gold standard few years back?


#14

Don’t you understand that you are free to make interpratation, BUT DO NOT SLANDER BUDDHA by changing HIS words AS LONG AS THE VOCABULARY “GOLD AND SILVER” is not vanished in this world. Why change it ???

Mahacundasutta AN.10.24 gives us an evidence that there is four (4) medium of exchanges, not only one medium of exchange acceptable in the Buddha’s age, these are : 1. Dhanaṃ (Money) 2. Dhaññaṃ (Grain) 3. Rajataṃ (Silver) 4. Jātarūpaṃ (Gold).

"Seyyathāpi, āvuso, puriso daliddova samāno aḍḍhavādaṃ vadeyya, adhanova samāno dhanavāvādaṃ vadeyya, abhogova samāno bhogavāvādaṃ vadeyya. So kismiñcideva dhanakaraṇīye samuppanne na sakkuṇeyya upanīhātuṃ dhanaṃ ((DHANAM) vā dhaññaṃ ((DHANNAM) ) vā rajataṃ (RAJATAM) vā jātarūpaṃ (JATARUPAM) vā. Tamenaṃ evaṃ jāneyyuṃ: ‘daliddova ayamāyasmā samāno aḍḍhavādaṃ vadeti, adhanova ayamāyasmā samāno dhanavāvādaṃ vadeti, abhogavāva ayamāyasmā samāno bhogavāvādaṃ vadeti.

“… a poor, destitute, and needy person claims to be rich, affluent, and wealthy. If, when he wants to buy something, he cannot pay with MONEY, GRAIN, SILVER, or GOLD, they would know him as a poor, destitute, and needy person claiming to be rich, affluent, and wealthy.”


#15

I understand what you say.
There is a prediction that petrol dollar is going to collapse and the gold standard going to come back. Just be patient. When this happens we can push Bhante @sujato to change his translation. It is just one push button away!


#16

Sutta only say “Kahapana”. Is it coin? Or Is it the term of used in gold and silver ? Who know the exact except the one that has advance meditation and see throu meditation. Interpration is being made as a coin ar simply metal by scientist. Who know they are right or wrong? One again, we are free to interparate and put it as NOTE in the below, BUT don’t change the original words of Buddha. Don’t you put coin beside kahapana and make it as Buddha’s word.


#17

Don’t change the original Buddha words. Make interpratation and put it below as Note.


#18

In Sri Lanka we say Kahavanu.
It is a standard amount of gold in a coin form (size of a seed).


#19

Someoneone in the past has wrongly interprated “KAHAPANA” as coin and then Because of the influence of Buddhism, Srilangka use KAHAVANU as standard amount of gold in a coin form. Is it exact what happen in Buddha’s age ? Why Buddha use the term “JATARUPARAJATA” (Gold and Silver) instead of “DHANAM” (Money) in all of the suttas and vinaya ? So, If Buddha say "JATARUPARAJATA (Gold and Silver), why do we dare alter it to MONEY ?


#20

So, do you think the Buddha allowed monks to use money?