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Gold and silver is not money?

money
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#83

Perhaps you may be right. There is an Australian wondering monk called Jason Chang live this way.
But not many monks are prepared to do this.
Just imagine Bhante Sujato decided to live like that. Who is going to translate Sutta into English?


#84

This logic doesn’t work Sarath.

The gift card is the same as any other requisite/dana that has already been offered.

Furthermore, the gift card does not give the monastic the huge range of choices (fuel for craving) that money/credit cards do.

With metta


#85

It depend on the amount of the gift.


#86

This is where we have to trust our monastics to actually be renunciants, isn’t it? And as lay people we have to support them in this and if we offer a gift card, 1. Be specific about its use 2. Be careful how much is on it 3. Give it to monastics who we can be sure of trusting.

But as you’ve only quoted this one section of my comment, I’m assuming you can now see the distinction between money and gift card/requisites? :slight_smile:


#87

Starbucks is only average, if that, coffee, and it is so expensive, especially in Thailand. Yet, in Chiang Mai I go to the Night Bazaar Starbucks on Loi Kroh every early morning when they open their doors, and buy a 90 Baht “take away” coffee, and pick up the latest issue of Citylife Magazine or Nation, and sit on the steps in front of the crazy LeMeridien Ganesh shrine, in the early morning bright sun, that faces the Night Market. I think of the Gayatri Mantra as the morning Thai sun beams on me, and I always feel I am in the most centered, peaceful and wonderful place on earth, even just for a few moments. I think it is my favorite place on earth. :slight_smile:

I really dislike Starbucks,but on that first morning in Chiang Mai, it is my first stop.


Hot Drinks Galore :)
#88

As I said before I have no problem for monks using gift card or money.
I have seen worse monk in Sri Lanka than using a mere innocent gift card.
But I want to make the point that the gift card also money.


#89

That’s nice and I agree. :heartpulse: Though I disagree, respectfully about the money. :slight_smile:

I respectfully and quite completely, and with metta, disagree :heartpulse:

Again, with respect and metta, I have to observe that there has been an endless repetition of the same comment (essentially) despite the logical and clear arguements put forward by others.

I personally can’t see the point of repetition as a tool as it is not effective in persuasion; indeed if this was real life (and not text online) I would find it rather annoying! :wink:

Cheekily meant with metta :slight_smile:


#90

I disagree I was repeating the same.
Every post I came up with a new argument but holding my ground.


#91

Sarath,

I’m a little confused… And I hope you’ll forgive me for any offense caused here…

But I can’t help remembering this:

It seems to me that using money

which is the main theme repeated, or as you say,

…using money seems to go to the heart of what it means to be a renunciant. A monastic.

To a far greater degree than any of the Bhikkhuni rules under discussion in that other thread do.

Now regardless of my views on money or Bhikkhuni rules - I’m just curious to know how, in your view, such flexibility and compassion applies to one thing amongst monks but not to another amongst nuns?

Afterall, it is giving up money and sexuality that are at the core of monastic renunciation. Which is why they are so important in the initial novice ordinations where a monk or a nun takes the 10 precepts.


Personally, it seems logical to me that it is better to not touch money - to be inflexible and rigid in this, than it is to be flexible and compassionate around some of the Bhikkhuni rules (which I won’t discuss too much here as I don’t want to overly derail this thread!!)

With metta :anjal:


#92

Actually my standing on the whole Vinaya is the same.
If any one want to break it please feel free to do so.
But do not try to justify it with new age arguments.
The ultimate goal is the Nibbana.


#93

Okay, so just to be clear, in your view, it’s okay to break Vinaya rules as they have been handed down to us in their current form.

I completely agree.

You seem to actually have alot of respect for the spirit of the Vinaya and what it stands for.

So I guess, you’d be okay with people justifying their changes with old-age arguments? Dhamma-Vinaya based arguements?


#94

What I am saying is rules are to be followed by the fools and to be used by the wise for decision making.
It you think you are not wise the best is to stick to the rule.
The worst thing is a fool think that s/he is wise.


#95

You know, I can kind of understand how you can be flexible enough to champion both these ways of approaching these issues @SarathW1 :slight_smile:

Perhaps this means you would be happy to support a nuns community regardless of what repressive rules they do or do not keep, and regardless of whether they touch money or not? :slight_smile:

That’s cute. I like that. :slight_smile:

But who’s to say who is wise? I mean, unless we’re mind readers, we can’t know another’s mind can we?

Also, there are degrees of delusion and wisdom in all of us. So I do think it must go back to something Bhante said earlier, about letting the nuns decide (as the monks do about money!) and then choosing who you’re going to support or express your opinion to (which you have a right to do :slight_smile: )

Personally, the money thing is pretty big for me. I know that there are some good social worker type monks in SL who are kind hearted and well- intentioned.

But I’ve seen what a truly renunciant community can be like and so my choice is to support them in whatever way I can with my limited funds.

Because truly renunciant communites - in my experience - regardless of their gender - seem to grow peace and kindness and encourage this in their supporters and lay community and this, from what I have seen with my own eyes and experienced in my own life, then flows outwards into the wider community.

So for me, they have to be, above all renunciant - no sex, no money. Then, they have to be kind, harmonious, peaceful, honest, natural. If they do this much, I’ll support them if I can, regardless of what other minor rules they do or don’t keep.

With metta and thanks for the chat :heartpulse:


#96

I’m not sure how exactly Starbucks gift card works but I think with most gift card some kind of financial transaction takes place at the point of purchase. The shop might be a franchise holder, local taxes etc. or the card may be managed by an intermediary company.

:anjal:


#97

Gold, silver,money, gold watch,… are valuables that attract bad people.
Gold, silver,money, gold watch,… are valuables that will cause painful feelings/troubles if they are missing or get stolen or damaged…
Gold, silver,money, gold watch,… are valuables that will trigger jealousy, ownership, prides…
Gold, silver,money, gold watch,… are valuables that will cling us to the material world.

Living with them is like living with dangers.
We cling to them because we do not see the dangers in them (or we do not worry about the dangers)
Living with them is like living in a minefield (or living with a time bomb). When it exploded, we will be in big trouble!

Seeing the dangers, one who committed to the path to end all sufferings will develop dispassion to those valuables and cuts off craving for valuable stuffs no matter where they come from.


#98

Although I think it has been described well already, I’ll try to illustrate gift card use in my own words.

Say my best friend has a birthday coming up and I want to buy her a present. She drives a lot for work and subsequently drinks lots of coffee. Since I can’t drive around with her all day for the chance to buy her a coffee directly, and because she’s really hard to buy presents for, I buy a Starbucks gift card for her. The card has the equivalent of five 16oz coffees, or whatever, that are already paid for. I have given money to Starbucks and my friend picks up the product at her leisure. The financial transaction is all on me.


#99

Gift card is transferable hence it is equal to cash. (even though it is not legal tender)


#100

Bit coins… isn’t gambling or speculation a no no?


#101

Hi Nadine
This is how I understand gift cards to work now days. You buy a card for a specific value (many can also be topped up) and that card can be used to make purchases. I could use my starbucks card to buy a cheese sandwich, a lemonade and a bit of merchandise. The value of the goods are deducted from the card and a balance may remain. The payment will go through the cash register, be included in the shops “takings” and if the shop is a franchise will have an impact on that particular shops bottom line.

Yes you have put forward money at the time of buying or topping up a gift card but that money has not yet been allocated to a specific purchase. It is being held in the card and then used by the presenter.

If a monastic chooses to use such a card I guess that is there prerogative and is possibly rather a small thing but, in my opinion a financial transaction does take place at the point of use and it does also give the monastic the opportunity to purchase and eat food which has not been directly offered.


#102

It is very simple. It works the same way currency exchange in a bank or in an airport.
You buy a gift card and sell it back.