Once again, lay people can realized a stage of sotapanna, sakadagami and anagami.
Your case is about Paccitiya 40, not nissagiya paccitiya 18. So…
Yes, the card is legal and is yours and anyone speaks it is not legal will commit violation of precept-4 or wrongly speech. Nissagiya Paccitiya 18 is about the clear object that is gold and silver. All nissagiya paccitiya object is clear stated. Your case is Paccitiya 40.
Do lay people give the food directly to you with hand?
" yo pana bhikkhu adinnaṃ mukhadvāraṃ āhāraṃ āhareyya aññatra udakadanta ponā, pācittiaṃ."
Whatever monk should convey to his mouth nutriment not given, except water for cleansing the teeth, there is an offence of expiation.
Make sure there is a laypeople give the food you order
I understand and agree with you. Sometimes, many of them dont understand that:
- The nature of nissagiya paccitiya stated by Buddha has a clear object. Food is food, card is card, metal is metal, wool is wool.
- If someone donate the card to you, just use it not to violate other rules of Patimokkha.
- Many don’t understand and waste their energy only the Paccitiya 18, but forget other rules of patimokkha can be observed by good monks, even with money. If not, how can a lay people attain the stage of Sotapanna, Sakadagami and Anagami? Lay people have money also.
Mobile phone? Why not? In the Buddha era with no mobile phone, there were bad monks and good monks. Mobile phone is no problem to a good monk. In moderm era, still there will be the same there are good monks and bad monks.
If you are right then I will lock you 100 years on a prison, abonding you from anything and doing anything , than you will be a Arahant. Ok?
You can read last Khandhaka, it’s tells about second Buddhist council. Here, I have some the texts for your reference:
… Now at that time the venerable Yasa, the son of Kākaṇḍakā, walking on tour among the Vajjis, arrived at Vesālī. Then the venerable Yasa, the son of Kākaṇḍakā, stayed there at Vesālī in the Great Grove in the Hall of the Gabled Roof. Now at that time the monks who were Vajjis of Vesālī, having on that Observance day filled a bronze pot with water, having set it in the midst of the Order of monks, spoke thus to lay-followers of Vesālī who came: “Give, sirs, a kahāpaṇa for the Order and half a pāda and a stamped māsaka ; there will be something to be done for the Order in respect of requisites.”
When they had spoken thus, the venerable Yasa, the son of Kākaṇḍakā, spoke thus to the lay-followers of Vesālī: “Do not, sirs, give kahāpaṇas and stamped māsakas to the Order: gold and silver are not allowable to recluses, sons of the Sakyans. The recluses, sons of the Sakyans do not consent (to accept) gold and silver, the recluses, sons of the Sakyans do not receive gold and silver, the recluses, sons of the Sakyans do not use jewels and refined gold, they have done with gold and silver.” Then the lay-followers of Vesālī, being spoken to thus by the venerable Yasa, the son of Kākaṇḍakā, nevertheless gave kahāpaṇas … and stamped māsakas to the Order. Then the monks who were Vajjis or Vesālī, having towards the end of that night arranged those gold coins, distributed portions according to the number of monks. Then the monks who were Vajjis of Vesālī spoke thus to the venerable Yasa, the son of Kākaṇḍakā:
“This portion of gold coins is for you, reverend Yasa.”
“I have no need of a portion of gold coins, sirs, I do not consent (to accept) gold coins.” …
You can check the Pali version here:
I have the Indonesian translation from someone but I think you didn’t need it since you can read English and everyone in here using English language.
Do you see? A Kahapana, half pada, and masaka is money that used to currency in Ancient India. It’s not made only from gold and silver. Sometimes you can find cooper kahapana, wood, and lax coins too (wood and lax is not durable, this coins only appears in texts but until now I didn’t see this coins still exists.)
It’s money, and until now monks are not allowed to receive money.
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Waks… and now you suggest that dana should be little amount and there will be no problem anymore for monks. Proliferation of mind…
There are monks on Buddha era, lived at jungle, and then having sex with animal. So, what you think, is it problem caused by mobile phone, caused by gift-card?
Who want to break free of only 1 Vinaya, to have sex? 226 others patimokkha is useless and only 1 is useful? The accusation proves that many of Buddhist who focuses their energy to this nissagiya Paccitiya 18, always slander other and violate its own precept.
If you want to stick to the rule, to Dhamma and Vinaya, stick it to what Buddha’s saying. Do not slander and accusse other monks or other lay people that we want to break free of vinaya. Supposed if you were right about your expanding idea beyond Buddha’s saying, you not suppose to slander others by saying people have bad intention to break free vinaya, … why …
. because there is 226 rules minus 1 to be worth observed.
[MN 39] “And what, monks, is there further to be done? Thinking: ‘Our bodily conduct must be perfectly pure, clear, open, and without defects, controlled. But not on account of this perfectly pure bodily conduct will we exalt ourselves or disparage others’”;
You see, so do not disparage others by saying they become a monk or become Buddhists to break free vinaya.
You are wrong because we don’t want to break free vinaya, they - many monks in Thailand live strictly what Buddha’s saying. I met some good monks, Thailand and Indonesia. I heard some bad monks too. Let us be a fair refree, there is 227 rules of patimokkha, 1 of them is debatable but there is 226 other rules worthed to be activated as a refree.
Buddha days also like that, there is a bad monk … there is a good monk. Not because mobile phone or not or not something that you want this monk should be.
Buddha Jayanti, the awakening of Buddha Teaching, awakened by good monks with no interested in money but accepted money when laypeople donated them on great amount. Buddha Jayanti … Mahasi Sayadaw, Ajahn Mun, Lungta Maha Boowa, Sangharaj 19th, Ajahn Chah, Ashin Jinarakkhita, Ven Jinadhammo, you can add others. Many.
And then, some new monks bornt after and explain there is an offence if a monk accepted money.
[AN 1.150] "Mendicants, those mendicants who explain non-offense as an offense are acting for the hurt and unhappiness of the people, for the harm, hurt, and suffering of gods and humans. They make much bad karma and make the true teaching disappear.”
Maybe in your country you have met many bad monks with money and hearing propaganda from a portion of Sangha that money is the main cause. There was a monk living in jungles and having sex with animal, so money and mobile phone is the cause ? In Jungle?
There are no lay-people act as refrees of remaining 226 rules of patimokkha to judge good or bad monks. Many lay people focus and wastes their energy only to 1 rules of patimokkha and divide monks as good and bad only by 1 rules of patimokkha, that is money. It happens, to prevent a monk from money. Something that is not spoken from Buddha mouth, causes friction.
“Bhikkhus, the Dhamma well proclaimed by me thus is clear, open, evident, and free of patchwork. [MN 22]”
"… and just as the Gracious One explains, so you should bear it in mind.” [MN 44].
Hey @ponmcjimron, that’s a lot of posts in a very short span of time!
Are you sure this is the most skillful way to discuss and discover here?
I would like to suggest you consider consolidating and structuring more your positions, arguments before posting.
Otherwise, it just flood and by definition, trolls the conversation people are having in the thread.
I think I reply to each member with explanation. I am not trolling, I explain ‘why’. Which ‘why’ you see that it become trolling.
You can read the Vibhanga, It’s clear that gold and money in here means money. You can see the stories why did Buddha made this rule.
Also this one.
The key difference is:
I focus to be a refree of my Sangha community that If the sticking to Nissagiya Paccitiya 18 that Buddha said ‘Gold and Silver’ and we stickly remember Buddha saying as what it was, ‘Gold and Silver’, if the sticking to Buddha saying, let say wrong, there are other 226 patimokkha worthed to be observed.
Things that often happened in Indonesian Buddhist forums…
What I suppose to say if I say you dont read my newest posting and you force me to accept the translation that is proven paradoxial or wrong. Let me repost for you.
The most reasonable translations should be, no doubt:
Nissagiya Paccitiya 18 *
Jataruparajata * = gold and silver.
Nissagiya Paccitiya 19 *
Rupiya * = acceptable medium of exchanges (not just money, all medium of exchanges which is timeless).
So it will make sense and derived from original cannon words when we translate and read:
- Nissagiya Paccitiya 18 *
"A monk does not accept gold and silver.
So the object of offence is clear, nissagiya paccitiya is always clear on object which nissagiya paccitiya 18 stays that ‘gold and silver’ is not accepted by a monk which no monks should keep.
Obviously the object is gold and silver because the Buddha said it clearly that object :
" …Jataruparajata …" not say another thing. Why does it need to be tampered with and the translation is changed to: “A monk cannot accept money?”
Cannot accept and touch a paper?
Present day of exchange medium is indeed a paper, made from wooden element, pulp, and money only a nickname for it.
If there is a ‘Sangha leader’, for the sake of the Vinaya Paccitiys 18 that is misunderstood by him, confiscates or orders people to confiscate or take paper that we modern people called money, that belonging to a monk who is supposed to be legitimate belongs to a monk, legitimate because it was not stolen by the monk, and the monk is forced to give it to the leader, then the leader may violate the 2nd parajika of Patimokkha, the most serious violation of taking goods that were not given.
And further, it makes senses if:
- Nissagiya Paccitiya 19 is understood as following: *
"Bhikkhu is not involved in trade involving medium of exchanges. (Pali: Rupiya = medium of exchanges)
It makes sense if translation rupiya into ‘medium of exchange’, and jataruparajata is not translated into ‘money’ so that monks allowed to keep paper ( we called it money) not offence of paccitiya 18 because paper is permitted because it is not gold and silver. However, it makes sense that monks should not be involved directly in trade transactions with any ‘Rupiya’ or medium of exchange (paper, silver gold, even rice can be a legal medium of exchange) without using a kappiya to execute the transaction. Maybe someday in future it will be a stone as legal medium of exchange in future century ) and paccitiya 18 and 19 no need of change because stone is accepted by monk today and that future. Paccitiya 19 limits the freedoom of a monk regarding the trade of stone as medium of exchange.
In the Buddha era, the meaning of * Rupiya * which matches the translation is ‘the medium of exchange’, and is not suitable to be changed the translation into ‘money’ on present day. In all areas where various types of business are used on Buddha days, even those medium of exchange can be forms of bones, skin, fruit, tree seeds , or whether that forms has been embossed or not.
Objects of medium of exchange which involved Nissaggiya 18 were silver, gold, gold masaka, silver masaka; were not permited and not accepted by monks.
Other medium of exchanges that era were permitted to be accepted included threads, plowshares,
cloth, cotton, cooked beans, and oil, gi (melted butter), butter, honey, sugar cane juice (sugar water), even rice.
So, it is wrong the Canon ‘Rupiya’ translates as ‘money’ because money is just one of exchange medium made of paper.
See Rhys Davis, Ancient Coins, etc., p. 7, he is inclined to reject the idea of translating ‘rupiya’ to ‘money’. Patta (alms bowl) which is ‘rūpiyamaya’ patta used by a group of six trouble-maker monks, will be weirdly translated as “patta made of money”. On the other hand, they also have patta which is ‘sovaṇṇamaya patta’, a patta made of gold, a type of suvaṇṇa gold.
`Then, what is the current translator doing that we think they should be wrong? ``
Jataruparajata *, they are skewed and have been translated it as * money *
Rupiya * = they are skewed and have also been translated as money.
- Nissagiya Paccitiya 18 *
A monk does not accept * money. *
- Nissagiya Paccitiya 19 * they say:
A monk cannot use * money.*
That is a paradoxical form of translation because it must be * wrong. *
If you can’t receive money, how come there are events using money?
In other words, if there is the present of nissagiya 18 then nissagiya 19 should not even exist .
So, it is very certain that the object, which is * not allowed * by Buddha to be accepted at * Nissagiya Paccitiya 18 * is * gold and silver * not paper (money) and there has been a misleading translation that has left Buddhists compartmentalized for this matter, which was not happening on Buddha Jayanti Era.
Is it a kind of Ad hominem abuse?
wow dude… I just tell that “it’s often happened in Indonesian Buddhist forum”, I’m not refer it to someone in this forum.
Oke, you are welcome. I have edited my last reply of your comment about repost of my newest posting, you can start reading it.
To me this topic should have been closed long time ago.
Bhante @sujato presented a very concise answer to the question right at the second post.