Good Friends/Kalyanamittas: A Personal Ad :dharmawheel:

[SeriousFun136]

@karl_lew

Anybody who helps me practice MN8 is a spiritual friend.

@karl_lew

Spiritual friends are those that help us progress on the Noble Eightfold Path.

These two seem in accordance with the Dhamma-Vinaya.

@karl_lew

For example, as a rock climber,

Thank you for taking the time to explain your perspective.

@karl_lew

The deepest lesson in all of that was humility. Because whenever I tried to avoid someone as being unworthy of spiritual friendship, I was proven wrong and eventually learned much from them.

MN8:12.28: ‘Others will be contemptuous, but here we will be without contempt.’

@anon87721581

Who is the person you shouldn’t associate with, accompany, or attend?
It’s someone who is inferior in terms of ethics, immersion, and wisdom.
You shouldn’t associate with, accompany, or attend such a person, except out of kindness and compassion.

How do you reconcile what you said about “deeming someone unworthy of spiritual friendship”/“contempt” with what the Buddha seems to say to explicitly discourage associating with those who are inferior to oneself “in terms of ethics, immersion, and wisdom”?
These two seem contradictory.

@ZenKen

I also think that the focus on finding the “perfect kalyanamitta” runs the risk of being a bad friend even as defined by the Buddha:

SuttaCentral DN 31
You can recognize a fake friend who’s all take on four grounds.

Your possessions end up theirs.
Giving little, they expect a lot.
They do their duty out of fear.
They associate for their own advantage.

If you believe someone is more attained than you and associate with them for your advantage, to progress along the path, rather than just to enjoy their company then your intention may be off. You may want them to save you rather be an example and support your practice (you also support theirs the best you can). I don’t remember the sutta saying that nobody can enlighten another person because it takes personal effort. For this reason I’m extremely wary of a narrow definition of kalyanmitta and a narrow definition of who qualifies, because it can get very exclusive very quickly and that doesn’t seem effective for progress as intended.

@anon87721581

Who is the person you should associate with, accompany, and attend with honor and respect?
It’s someone who is superior in terms of ethics, immersion, and wisdom.
You should associate with, accompany, and attend such a person with honor and respect.
Why is that?
Thinking, ‘I’ll fulfill the entire spectrum of ethical conduct I haven’t yet fulfilled, or support with wisdom in every situation the ethical conduct I’ve already fulfilled. I’ll fulfill the entire spectrum of immersion I haven’t yet fulfilled, or support with wisdom in every situation the immersion I’ve already fulfilled. I’ll fulfill the entire spectrum of wisdom I haven’t yet fulfilled, or support with wisdom in every situation the wisdom I’ve already fulfilled.’
That’s why you should associate with, accompany, and attend this person with honor and respect.

How do you reconcile what you said about “if you believe someone is more attained than you and associate with them for your advantage, to progress along the path,” with what the Buddha seems to say to explicitly encourage associating with those who are superior to oneself “in terms of ethics, immersion, and wisdom”?
These two seem contradictory.

@ZenKen

For this reason I’m extremely wary of a narrow definition of kalyanmitta and a narrow definition of who qualifies, because it can get very exclusive very quickly and that doesn’t seem effective for progress as intended.

I am neither interested in a narrow, exclusive criterion nor a wide, inclusive criterion.
I am interested in figuring out what criterion the Buddha himself provided in the Dhamma-Vinaya and how one can actually use that criterion to find actual kalyanamittas in real life.
Without a proper, accurate, and clear understanding of what a kalyanamittas even is or who it is suitable for one to associate with, how can one set out to consciously, intentionally, and proactively search for suitable beings in accordance with the instructions provided by the Buddha in the Dhamma-Vinaya?