Gratification accumulated over multiple lives

[Radius]

I don’t have a question, just some thoughts which have been bouncing around for a few weeks—want to see how they look outside my head.

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MN54 is a well-known sutta I reflect on often, the drawbacks of sensual pleasures. It’s practical, and I can see examples of these similes in my lived experience and I don’t want to subtract from it. That said, for every dog I’ve seen gnawing a meatless bone, I’ve seen several more enjoying a meaty bone or some other treat. Every week I see seagulls, squabbling over food—but I see many more pigeons, fantails, duck, geese, blackbirds and sparrows who do not fight over food. I’ve experienced the pleasant dreams that are poof gone on awakening, but I’ve also been flooded with relief waking from bad dreams. I’ve seen stronger people taking advantage of weaker, but also seen stronger people helping a weaker individual through some difficulty.

That was the warm up, for more effect consider the experiences accumulated over many lifetimes. We have the mountain of bones, the ocean full of tears, the ocean full of blood. Again though, this only considers the suffering and ignores the pleasure accumulated over many lives. Granted, I wouldn’t find a mountain of ice cream very appealing, but there have been other pleasures. How many hours of pleasant meditation have we accumulated over the last 40 eons? Heaps.

In brief, our accountant seems to only be filling in half the ledger. Of course it will sound bad to consider 40 eons worth of lives but only filtering out the drawbacks. There’s been gratification also has there not? “Ah” someone says “but you weren’t really enjoying yourself, you only thought you were”. Perhaps, but that’s like saying that the restaurant down the street don’t know how to cook…but then returning every week for a feed. Actions speak louder than words. The fact that we’re getting reborn surely means we’re finding roughly as much pleasure as pain. If not, we’d quickly realize it’s a mugs game and no-one would have the desire to come back.

To keep it EBT an excerpt from SN22.28:

As long as sentient beings don’t truly understand these five grasping aggregates’ gratification […] they haven’t escaped from this world

[Khemarato.bhikkhu]

@Radius

our accountant seems to only be filling in half the ledger.

Yeah. That’s our problem. We tend to hold on to the good and try to forget the bad. Seeing both halves of the ledger with equanimity, the Buddha promises us that the pleasure is slight and the pain far greater:

‘Appassādā kāmā bahudukkhā bahupāyāsā, ādīnavo ettha bhiyyo’ti

Sensual pleasures give little gratification and much suffering and distress. The danger in them is far the greater.

~ MN 14

The fact that we can generally not remember the eons we spent in hell is probably good for our ability to function in this lifetime, but it does produce a somewhat distorted perception of saṃsāra’s balance. Just because your life now is mostly pleasant, don’t assume that extrapolates!

@Radius

The fact that we’re getting reborn surely means we’re finding roughly as much pleasure as pain. If not, we’d quickly realize it’s a mugs game and no-one would have the desire to come back.

Well, that’s exactly what the Buddha is encouraging us to quickly realize!

Unfortunately, escaping addiction is quite hard.

In one case, the addict is so delusional, or in so much pain, that inflicting torture on themselves feels like relief.

In MN 75, the Buddha compares this to a person with leprosy. Their skin is in so much pain, they willingly burn their own skin (Footnote: gratitude for modern medicine! )

That person was affected by leprosy, with sores and blisters on their limbs. Being devoured by worms, scratching with their nails at the opening of their wounds, their sense faculties were impaired. So even though the fire was actually painful to touch, they had a distorted perception that it was pleasant. In the same way, sensual pleasures of the past, future, and present are painful to touch, fiercely burning and scorching.

In the second case, a person with an addiction might see that their indulgence is harming them. But seeing that it’s harmful is merely the first step in overcoming it! That’s where the rest of the path comes in.

Back to MN 14:

as long as they do not achieve the rapture and bliss that are apart from sensual pleasures and unskillful qualities, or something even more peaceful than that, they can return to sensual pleasures.

The mind needs some source of happiness and relief. For many people, the only source they know is from the senses.

The big secret is that beyond the senses, there’s a much better source of happiness and contentment. But, it is hard work! Which is probably why it’s still a bit of a secret!

[Mkoll]

Why does the Buddha teach so many practices that ask us to reflect on the unappealing aspects of things: the unattractiveness of the parts of the body, corpses in decay, the repulsiveness of nutriment, the countless diseases the body can get, aging, sickness, death, separation? So we can let go of our lustful desire and attachment to things. That lustful desire and attachment is the cause of dukkha. He acknowledges the happiness that arises from sensuality, points out the price that always accompanies that happiness, and shows the way out from all of it—gratification, danger, and escape.

[Mkoll]

I did find a sutta that addresses the gist of the OP fairly well.

So I have heard. At one time the Buddha was staying near Vesālī, at the Great Wood, in the hall with the peaked roof.

Then Mahāli the Licchavi went up to the Buddha … and said to him:

“Sir, Pūraṇa Kassapa says this: ‘There is no cause or reason for the corruption of sentient beings. Sentient beings are corrupted without cause or reason. There’s no cause or reason for the purification of sentient beings. Sentient beings are purified without cause or reason.’ What does the Buddha say about this?”

“Mahāli, there is a cause and reason for the corruption of sentient beings. Sentient beings are corrupted with cause and reason. There is a cause and reason for the purification of sentient beings. Sentient beings are purified with cause and reason.”

“But sir, what is the cause and reason for the corruption of sentient beings? How are sentient beings corrupted with cause and reason?”

“Mahāli, if form were absolutely painful—soaked and steeped in pain and not steeped in pleasure—sentient beings wouldn’t be aroused by it. But because form is pleasurable—soaked and steeped in pleasure and not steeped in pain—sentient beings are aroused by it. Since they are aroused by it, they’re caught up in it, and so they become corrupted. This is a cause and reason for the corruption of sentient beings. This is how sentient beings are corrupted with cause and reason.

If feeling …

perception …

choices …

consciousness were absolutely painful—soaked and steeped in pain and not steeped in pleasure—sentient beings wouldn’t be aroused by it. But because consciousness is pleasurable—soaked and steeped in pleasure and not steeped in pain—sentient beings are aroused by it. Since they are aroused by it, they’re caught up in it, and so they become corrupted. This is a cause and reason for the corruption of sentient beings. This is how sentient beings are corrupted with cause and reason.”

“But sir, what is the cause and reason for the purification of sentient beings? How are sentient beings purified with cause and reason?”

“Mahāli, if form was absolutely pleasurable—soaked and steeped in pleasure and not steeped in pain—sentient beings wouldn’t grow disillusioned with it. But because form is painful—soaked and steeped in pain and not steeped in pleasure—sentient beings do grow disillusioned with it. Being disillusioned, desire fades away. When desire fades away they are purified. This is a cause and reason for the purification of sentient beings. This is how sentient beings are purified with cause and reason.

If feeling …

perception …

choices …

consciousness was absolutely pleasurable—soaked and steeped in pleasure and not steeped in pain—sentient beings wouldn’t grow disillusioned with it. But because consciousness is painful—soaked and steeped in pain and not steeped in pleasure—sentient beings do grow disillusioned with it. Being disillusioned, desire fades away. When desire fades away they are purified. This is a cause and reason for the purification of sentient beings. This is how sentient beings are purified with cause and reason.”

-SN 22.60

[marinoklisovich]

@Khemarato.bhikkhu

The big secret is that beyond the senses, there’s a much better source of happiness and contentment. But, it is hard work! Which is probably why it’s still a bit of a secret!

You’re probably referring to jhanas. In order to experience the bliss and happiness of jhanas, do we need to enter meditation or we can have them in a wakeful state?

[Khemarato.bhikkhu]

@marinoklisovich

You’re probably referring to jhanas.

Ultimately, nibbāna.

@marinoklisovich

In order to experience the bliss and happiness of jhanas, do we need to enter meditation or we can have them in a wakeful state?

Jhāna literally means “meditation.”

[faujidoc1]

@Radius

The fact that we’re getting reborn surely means we’re finding roughly as much pleasure as pain.

I guess we all come to this point sooner or later… How to have the cake, yet eat it too?

Something karl lew once said on this forum really helped me, perhaps it will help you too.

@karl_lew

But I got fancy and clever.
Being fancy and clever, I had this thought:
“What if I let go of the current delight and simply pass freely on to the next?”
And this fancy and clever thought did indeed work as my monkey swung from branch to branch.

But one day, on a cliff looking down.
Looking down I saw no branches.
The monkey screamed in fear.

PS: The path you are loosely conceptualizing is the path to Brahma (DN13, MN97, MN99) . Do good, don’t do bad.. enjoy the fruits of good karma viz heaven, while minimizing the effects of bad karma.
One can indeed sustain in that manner for a very long time… but not forever. Its like a winning streak in an endless game of snakes and ladders. But when balance is restored…

[Radius]

I do confess I was being a little naughty, I’m claiming the OP is rhetoric. Not only is a mountain of ice cream unappealing, I can’t personally think of a mountain of anything which would be appealing.

I’m currently enjoying the sound of rain outside, but unfortunately as per AN6.60, that pleasant sound will be eventually replaced with “the noise of the elephants, horses, chariots, soldiers, and the drums, kettledrums, horns, and cymbals”—or perhaps simply by a hoon with a loud brombrom car engine and/or thumping invasive bass. Later today, I’ll get hungry, be temporarily satisfied with a meal, only to get hungry again, it’s a familiar loop.

Material fatigue is well understood in engineering. It’s when a feature fails, not because of excessive loading, but because of cyclic loading. Load on, load off, repeat many many times. Dukkha is dukkha, but from what I can see it’s even worse due to it coming and going as per AN8.6, the eight worldly conditions. Pleasure/pain over and over. I don’t think I’d be the only one who forgets…when pleasure is present I like to imagine it remaining, but it never does.

Life is undoubtably dukkha, and it seems to me that dukkha can be sneakier than imagined. It’s not that the cartwheel doesn’t roll, it’s that it rolls…kinda.

[BethL]

Thank you for the energy and courage to start this thread.

@Radius

The fact that we’re getting reborn surely means we’re finding roughly as much pleasure as pain. If not, we’d quickly realize it’s a mugs game and no-one would have the desire to come back.

I’ve considered this type of gratification the one that keeps the clinging persistent through rebirth. That which Ven. Khemarato speaks to.

That is, whatever is clinging at the end – whether pleasant or unpleasant vedana – is not liberated from the clinging.

To cultivate gratification from non-clinging maybe requires other terms.

Gratefulness
Generosity
Materiality Freedom
Not Taking Things Personally
Always Wanting the Best for Others
…?