Groundbreaking sutra reveals earliest view of nirvāna?!

nope. that’s the answer to the question.

well, except for this one maybe. if you were wondering.

When there is breathing, he knows that he’s breathing.
EĀ 17.1

smile! :smile:

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And when he leaves his body… what does he do? :dizzy_face:

Vetter says that EBT are essentially the teachings of Sariputra.

So make that “earliest elaboration” of Nibbana :slightly_smiling_face:

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And Leibniz said the world was made of immaterial monads. :slight_smile: So just because someone says something, even an intelligent person, doesn’t mean all that much on its own for establishing what is true. I trust Leibniz was a brilliant thinker, but I don’t think his well-thought metaphysics is correct. I trust Vetter also has astute writings, but I don’t think the theory you mention is correct or well grounded in the available evidence.

I will add to this that “Sariputra” is itself a teaching in the EBTs. So assuming Vetter’s view would lead us to a curious scenario approaching a quasi-tautology.

Best wishes!

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I would not have expected a religious Venerable to share historical-critical views, so all is well :slightly_smiling_face:

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I certainly value historical and text-critical analysis of the texts; I just don’t hold that view. Your response would seem to parallel saying that, because I reject Leibniz’ metaphysics, I don’t accept any Western philosophy as having anything of value — which is just not true. Be well :slight_smile:

EDIT: The divide between “religion = blind faith” and “evidence-based analysis” is a Western concept which arose for a complex kaleidoscope of reasons. It has in part to do with Christian relationships to the Bible in West, which do not apply wholesale to the Buddhist tradition. As a religious monastic, I am not committed to the view that the sutras are infallible transmission from a single, coherent person.

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As someone trained in formal methods and the hard sciences I do find it continuously and incredibly surprising the breadth and insistence with which people in the softer “sciences” claim to know given the paper thin evidence this knowing is often based upon.

From a certain point of view one can see people of faith (who are loathe to acknowledge their faith) claiming fact and then impugning or dismissing criticism as motivated by faith. It is breathtaking.

EDIT: This is a general comment that was inspired by the above quote, but to be clear I do not intend to point out anyone in particular in this thread as representing anything. It is just more of a sentiment I share based upon a broad range of conversations I see on this forum and not meant to single out anyone at all.

:pray:

Well, I agree. Vetter’s claims have many “ifs”, and textual criticism is of course not natural science.

I’ve just recently linked to his book/report in another thread, and let’s leave it at that. I have no wish to convert anybody.

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I asked Copilot “Is there a groundbreaking sutra that reveals the earliest view of nirvana?” and it replied with information about the Mahayana Parinirvana Sutra. Um … :upside_down_face:

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