Grounds for Vibhava Tanha

The Watercooler
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IF one sees the escape of suffering in becoming non existent, …as self, as soul, as life principle, as body and mind, as a self, as not-self, as lifestream, as mere impersonal processes, does that really make a difference?
I am inclined to…NO…it is all vibhava tanha. In essence one desires non-existence.

If one believes in the idea that there are mere impersonal processes, one can also understand that mere impersonal processes do not suffer. They do no desire the end of suffering. So, if one has this view, one can understand that wishing the end of suffering is rooted in delusion anyway.

Grounds for Tanha

One person might believe that with death finally all suffering ceases because he/she does not believe in an afterlife. This person welcomes death as the escape from suffering. This person sees becoming non-existent at death as the escape from his/her misery. And desires and delights in this prospect. He clings to this perspective. It at least gives some hope, some comfort that there is an end to his/her suffering.
But like the Buddha shows, there is an afterlife, and this is a wrong way of thinking.

Another person considers that he/she is as lifestream for endless times being reborn and experiencing suffering. This person feels that he or she as lifestream or mere impersonal processes must end and become finally non-existent to make an end to suffering. This person delights in that prospects and desires it. Clings to it. At least, he/she thinks, that is the end of suffering.

What they both share is that they strive to become non-existent because both see this as the escape from suffering. They both delight in the idea of becoming non-existent, finally not sense anything anymore, not feel anymore, not perceive anymore etc.

One person delights in the idea to go out like a flame but this will not happen.
Another also delights in the idea of going out like a flame but does that happen?

I feel, both is vibhava tanha because both are a desire to become non-existent.
And it does not really matter how this desire is rooted. It remains vibhava tanha.
There is no such thing as a right striving to become non-existent. Or a striving to become non-existent based upon right view. I do not believe such.

In seeing that nor desire for sensual pleasure, nor desire for existence, nor desire for non-existence, is conducive, i feel, one sees the Path. All these passions are not the Path to end suffering.

That is my feeling with all this.

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Not-self (anatta) is not vibhava. Vibhava is a self-view.

They neither make a choice nor form an intention to continue existence or to end existence.

So neva taṁ abhisaṅkharoti, na abhisañcetayati bhavāya vā vibhavāya vā.

Because of this, they don’t grasp at anything in the world.

So anabhisaṅkharonto anabhisañcetayanto bhavāya vā vibhavāya vā na kiñci loke upādiyati,

Not grasping, they’re not anxious. Not being anxious, they personally become extinguished.

anupādiyaṁ na paritassati, aparitassaṁ paccattaṁyeva parinibbāyati.

MN 140

The right striving is for bhavanirodha rather than for vibhava. Accuracy with terminology is important here. Vibhava is a type of bhava. Keep in mind SN 56.11 describes three types of ponobbhavikā, namely, kamabhava, bhavatanha & vibhavatanha. They are all bhava.

The above is well-expressed. However, again, it is important to be accurate with terminology. The problem in Buddhism is ‘tanha’. ‘Tanha’ is ‘craving’ rather than mere generic ‘desire’. There is always a ‘desire’ to end suffering in the Noble Person however it is not called ‘tanha’. There are other words for this.

However, an issue with what is quoted above is its emphasis on impersonal elements it is sort of climbing the tree from the top. For stream-entry, the Buddha generally taught the Noble Truths, which require a volitional act of abandoning craving. The abandoning of craving actually becomes a ‘skill’ in the accomplished practitioner; similar to a person highly skilled & swift in emptying rubbish bins.

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as you show…the choice, the intent to end existence is vibhava tanha.
How is this different from striving for mere cessation? That is not a choice, an intent to end existence?

What do you mean?

Yes

Tanha is really that element that makes us engage into a search for 1. sense pleasure, for being reborn in high realms and a search to become non-existent.
It is also that element that leads to involvement with what is perceived.
It is not really different from passion. Not all volition is passionate of nature, Indeed.
i agree with you. Passion has always an element of forcefulness, the nature of an urge, a drift. That is also why it is fettering.

I understand. But i would re-consider the view that you must become impersonal.
The idea that you must turn into a conditioned machinery is, i feel, a wrong and dangerous view.

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The Buddha did not say vibhava tanha has roots. Once this is acknowledged, the roots of vibhava tanha belong to the fields of modern psychology and philosophy.

The death instinct provides explanatory power as to why people crave for non-existence. As for philosophy, the following from Ven. Ñāṇavīra Thera’s book might be of relevance:

It is for negative thinking. ‘Precisely because the negative is present
in existence, and present everywhere (for existence is a constant process of
becoming), it is necessary to become aware of its presence continuously, as
the only safeguard against it.’—S. Kierkegaard, op. cit., p. 75. Positive or
abstract thinking abstracts from existence and is thus incapable of thinking
it continuously. The difficulty that arises for the positive thinker is expressed
by Kierkegaard in these terms.

To think existence sub specie æterni and in abstract terms is essen-*
> tially to abrogate it…. It is impossible to conceive existence without
> movement, and movement cannot be conceived sub specie æterni.
> To leave movement out is not precisely a distinguished achieve-
> ment…. But inasmuch as all thought is eternal, there is here created
> a difficulty for the existing individual. Existence, like movement, is
> a difficult category to deal with; for if I think it, I abrogate it, and
> then I do not think it. It might therefore seem to be the proper thing
> to say that there is something that cannot be thought, namely, exist-
> ence. But the difficulty persists, in that existence itself combines
> thinking with existing, in so far as the thinker exists. Op.cit.,pp.273-4.

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“They neither make a choice nor form an intention to continue existence or to end existence” MN140

This means there are also people who make a choice and form an intention to end existence. This last is vibhava tanha.

It is rooted in the idea that death is the definitive end of ones suffering. Death is seen as the escape. Death is regarded as the end of existence, a mere cessation. After death nothing is ever felt anymore. That is the idea people can have. Those people do not really want to die, but they wish the end of their pains, misery, discomfort and welcome death. Because they believe that is the end of their suffering. If those people were not suffering they also would not welcome death.

Other people go a step further. They do not only wish to have no pains anymore, no discomfort, etc but they just do not want to experience anything anymore. Also no joy, no friendship, no nice feelings.
(My feeling with this is that these people will be reborn among those beings without vinnanas (asaññasatta)).
These people wish to end all experiences. They want it to cease, without anything remaining. And they envision that with the cessation of all experiences at a last death, this wish comes true. Finally all ceases. Nothing remains.

In my opinion it is both a desire to end existence. Both vibhava tanha.
The last even more extreme or radical then the first.

So, in line with MN140: there are people who make a choice or form an intention to end existence. Buddha does not approove such.

What people do, i feel, is that they try to find all kinds of excuses (read: using logic, reasonings, intellectual trickery) that this choice or intention to end existence is not vibhava tanha.

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I still fail to see where “the roots” of vibhava tanha are mentioned?. As for tanha, different analogies are given such as taṇhā sibbinī as in AN6.61 or taṇhā sneho as in AN3.76. Roots as Mula has more to do with pariyāya as in MN1.

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Yes, thank you for the references. I believe we can say that all tanhas are rooted in avijja per Paticca Samuppada. With roots i mean: tanha is based upon a wrong understanding or wrong view. It is rooted in wrong ideas. Moha as root.

No desire to end existence is skillful, i believe. There is no such thing as a desire to end existence that is based upon right view.

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I did not encounter the notion that all tanhas are rooted in avijja. Instead, in AN10.58 we read:

chandamūlakā, āvuso, sabbe dhammā

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It seems i have my own private buddhism. I am happy with it, but, apparantly others see only mistakes, confusion etc.

For me kama tanha, bhava tanha, vibhava tanha are ways to talk about the 2 noble truth. Meeting with suffering we incline to escape it by seeking the pleasure of the senses, seeking the pleasure of high realms/states or seeking the pleasure of the end of our existence . There we find delight in. That is seen as the escape of suffering. But is it not. These tanhas ares based upon avijja. It is not a true Path to end suffering.

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Avijja is taught as paccaya or mala as in Dhp 243, or as the highest samyojana.

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Oke, isnt moha a root?

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Giving up moha is associated with abandoning the five lower fetters.

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I don’t know if this is useful but in an article by Ven. Analayo, vibhava-tanha is related to ignorance ( a “manifestation of ignorance”) and the wish for ending one’s existence stems from clinging to the idea of there being an “atta”.

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I am more focused on a momentary approach of Dhamma. And i believe that a craving for new vedanas, new experiences, is a craving for a renewed existence of the khandha’s, a craving for their manifestation. One wants this or that to experience. That is craving for renewed existence of the khandhas.

But we also come to see, hear, feel etc things we do not like to see, hear, feel, etc. We crave for the non-existence of those khandhas. This can become so extreme that one craves to die. Craving for the end of the khandha’s. Not wanting to perceive and feel anything anymore. That is, i feel, vibhava tanha. It is not exactly patigha but more like being oriented upon the end of feeling and perception. Looking forward to that.

What the Buddha teaches, i believe, is that these people do not understand that one does not suffer from what is being experienced, but from taking up the khandhas as me, mine, my self. That is why one wants the khandhas to cease in the first place.
The desire to end the khandhas would be absent if these would not be regarded as me mine and my self. The more the khandhas are perceived as me, mine and my self the stronger one wants or their renewal or their cessation if they are not wished for.
But those people are not aiming at the cessation of tanha.

All tanhas arise where there is something agreeable or pleasurable and one is looking forward to it, delight in it (DN22). In this case of vibhava tanha i think one looks forward to the non-existence of the khandhas. In normal language one just craves the absence or end of all feelings and perceptions, in fact the end of vinnanas. That is because one does not see that due to the tanhas the burden is taken up. So in stead of the cessation of the khandhas one must strive for the cessation of the tanhas and taking these khandhas up as me, mine and my self.

I believe that Buddha saw that this same element of looking forward to the renewal or end of the khandhas literally also means that one goes forward. It is like feeding the forward momentum, feeding the ride, prolonging the ride.

The lesson is, i believe: One must not project the escape from suffering into the future. It is here and now by letting go, abandoning, relinquishing the cravings for renewal and cessation of the khandhas.

"Now this is the noble truth of the cessation of suffering. It’s the fading away and cessation of that very same craving with nothing left over; giving it away, letting it go, releasing it, and not clinging to it "(SN56.11)

It is easy to see that such is only possible when there is no judgement at all taking place of what is being experienced. No emotional judgements towards what is felt, no judgement in term of views (this is my self, this I am etc) and also no judgement in terms of conceit (I am) .

If one still wants to experience this and not that, how can tanha ever cease?

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Iti 49

how do some get stuck? Because of love, delight, and enjoyment of existence, when the Dhamma is being taught for the cessation of existence [bhavanirodhāya], the minds of some gods and humans do not leap forth, gain confidence, settle down, and become decided. That is how some get stuck.
And how do some overreach? Some, becoming horrified, repelled, and disgusted with existence, delight in ending existence [vibhavaṁ] ‘When this self is annihilated and destroyed when the body breaks up, and doesn’t exist after death: that is peaceful, that is sublime, that is how it is.’ That is how some overreach.

Vibhava Tanhā is derived from repulsion, that is derived from unwise attention to unpleasant sensations. Seeing unpleasant sensations with wisdom, the mind would not crave for non-becoming / non-existence. See MN44.

“The underlying tendency for greed underlies pleasant feeling. The underlying tendency for repulsion underlies painful feeling. The underlying tendency for ignonace underlies neutral feeling" (…)
“The underlying tendency to greed should be given up when it comes to pleasant feeling. The underlying tendency to repulsion should be given up when it comes to painful feeling. The underlying tendency to ignorance should be given up when it comes to neutral feeling.”

In DN1 it can be found some forms of Annihilationism. They are derived from the understanding that the self exists and is formed by some kind of component (the four material elements, a deva-like body sustained by divine food, a Brāhma-like mind-made body, or the immaterial attainments) and that the dissolution of these components results in the destruction of the self. Except by the view that the material body (made of four elements) is the self, these wrong annihilationist views state that it’s necessary some form of spiritual attainment (a heavenly rebirth, or the jhanas) to the self be destroyed. People attached to theses views may search for spiritual practices with the intention of destroying the self. So these wrong views are also connected to Vibhava Tanhā (as conditions for the arising or as consequence).

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I still do not see roots of vibhava tanha!

The second noble truth is samudaya, but when named/designated, it is tanha. To designate a root for vibhava tanha is to replace one label with another, where the criteria is success. According to this approach, vibhava is not the root, but tanha is the culprit and has to be uprooted.

When it comes to samudaya, vibhava is not used, but rather natthitā:

But when you truly see the origin of the world with right understanding, the concept of non-existence regarding the world does not occur.

Lokasamudayaṁ kho, kaccāna, yathābhūtaṁ sammappaññāya passato yā loke natthitā sā na hoti.

And when you truly see the cessation of the world with right understanding, the concept of existence regarding the world does not occur.

Lokanirodhaṁ kho, kaccāna, yathābhūtaṁ sammappaññāya passato yā loke atthitā sā na hoti.

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You might be right that there may not be a specific sutta where the Buddha explicitly explains the roots of Vibhava Tanha. However, it is possible to understand the origins of Vibhava Tanhā by carefully studying the suttas.

Vibhava Tanhā is a subtype of craving—a specific way in which craving manifests, besides craving for sensual pleasures and craving to continue existence. Another way of understanding craving is through its relation to sense-objects. For example, see MN9:

And what is the noble truth of the origin of suffering? It’s the craving that leads to future lives, mixed up with relishing and greed, taking pleasure wherever it lands. That is, craving for sensual pleasures, craving to continue existence, and craving to end existence. This is called the noble truth of the origin of suffering.
(…)
But what is craving? What is its origin, its cessation, and the practice that leads to its cessation? There are these six classes of craving. Craving for sights, sounds, smells, tastes, touches, and ideas. Craving originates from feeling.

To fully understand the origin of suffering (Dukkha Samudaya), it is necessary to understand Dependent Origination (Paṭiccasamuppāda). Dependent Origination reveals how craving leads to suffering and the conditions for the arising of craving. The primary condition for the arising of craving is feeling, as explained in SN 12.1 and SN 12.2

Feeling is a condition for craving.

However, feeling only leads to tanhā when ignorance is present, as mentioned earlier.

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This is also my understanding.
And @Bundokji
I think there is a sutta that directly links ignorance to vibhava-tanha. I’ll look for it when I have more time.

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You might be right that there may not be a specific sutta where the Buddha explicitly explains the roots of Vibhava Tanha. However, it is possible to understand the origins of Vibhava Tanhā by carefully studying the suttas.

There is no specific sutta where the Buddha explicitly explain the roots of vibhava tanha because such notions are rooted either in modern psychology or in philosophy as per my previous reply to the OP. In Buddha dhamma, a root is a method of teaching:

“Our teachings are rooted in the Buddha. He is our guide and our refuge. Sir, may the Buddha himself please clarify the meaning of this. The mendicants will listen and remember it.”

“Bhagavaṁmūlakā no, bhante, dhammā bhagavaṁnettikā bhagavaṁpaṭisaraṇā. Sādhu vata, bhante, bhagavantaṁyeva paṭibhātu etassa bhāsitassa attho. Bhagavato sutvā bhikkhū dhāressantī”ti.

Vibhava Tanhā is a subtype of craving—a specific way in which craving manifests, besides craving for sensual pleasures and craving to continue existence. Another way of understanding craving is through its relation to sense-objects.

If you agree that mūla is only a designation that is related to the Tathāgata’s privilege of choosing words as he sees fit, you would see that the only way to distinguish tanha from chanda is his choice of words to teach a path. This makes emphasizing vibhava tanha as a subtype of craving of little value as if distinguishing different type of faeces would bring about purity of some sort. Kāmataṇhā, bhavataṇhā, vibhavataṇhā are all tanha. Instead of trying to find individual roots for each, samudaya should be abandoned.

The noble truth of suffering should be completely understood. The noble truth of the origin of suffering should be given up. The noble truth of the cessation of suffering should be realized. The noble truth of the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering should be developed.

Dukkhaṁ, bhikkhave, ariyasaccaṁ pariññeyyaṁ, dukkhasamudayaṁ ariyasaccaṁ pahātabbaṁ, dukkhanirodhaṁ ariyasaccaṁ sacchikātabbaṁ, dukkhanirodhagāminī paṭipadā ariyasaccaṁ bhāvetabbaṁ.

To fully understand the origin of suffering (Dukkha Samudaya), it is necessary to understand Dependent Origination (Paṭiccasamuppāda). Dependent Origination reveals how craving leads to suffering and the conditions for the arising of craving. The primary condition for the arising of craving is feeling, as explained in SN 12.1 and SN 12.2

Paṭiccasamuppāda helps to understand the second noble truth in terms of gratification, drawbacks and escape. It also helps give rise to two more factors of the N8FP in terms of right knowledge and right release. Apart from that, what is the point of teaching a middle that is dependent on the extremes - except through the lens of the Tathāgata’s privilege? The twelfth link ( Jarāmaraṇa) is often understood as old age and death, but there is more to it that distinguishes it from kālaṅkato.

However, feeling only leads to tanhā when ignorance is present, as mentioned earlier.

If what you say is true, then it would have been proper to designate the cause of suffering as feelings or to place it as the first link - especially when are talking about roots.

Feelings can give rise to tanha regardless of the typology. Picking on vibhava tanha seems related to the business of saving lives, not the dhamma.

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Thank you. Grateful if you share it when you find it.