Has anyone found a non-Buddhist Indian text structured like suttas?

Like using Thus have I heard, and location etc
Saying who talked, who was there.

I find it odd that it seems typically Buddhist text only.
One will assume that there is other texts atleast close in style. But not that I remember.

Thats amazing.

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Plenty of Jain sutras seem relatively similar (at least some of the earlier ones I’ve skimmed). These are just features of an oral tradition coming up with formulas to consistently memorize and pass down texts. If we expand to incorporate oral texts built on similar principles and formulae, then lots of oral poetry, hymns, etc. incorporate these techniques for aid in recitation, but it may not be as structural as in a prose text (think kennings, rhyme schemes, epithets, formulaic metaphors/similes, metre, recurring phrases to recall specific themes or events, etc.)

Mettā

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Im going take a look. Looking into oral tradition texts. But most indians texts are and I dont remember them liking doing that.

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Hi Dhammasara,
Thanks for raising this question! I found parallels in Samkhya texts and had no one to share the info with :slightly_smiling_face:

While Vedic texts were also transmitted orally, their form and the techniques aiding memorisation were quite different from the Pali texts. But I did stumble across two texts - both of which must ultimately belong to early Samkhya (by that I mean, pre-Samkhya Karika) school.

  1. First is a quotation found in the commentary to Yogasutra 3:18.

" bhagavato jaigīṣavyasya saṃskārasākṣātkaraṇād daśasu mahāsargeṣu janmapariṇāmakramam anupaśyato vivekajaṃ jñānaṃ prādurabhūt. atha bhagavān āvaṭyas tanudharas tam uvāca — daśasu mahāsargeṣu bhavyatvād anabhibhūtabuddhisattvena tvayā narakatiryaggarbhasaṃbhavaṃ duḥkhaṃ saṃpaśyatā devamanuṣyeṣu punaḥ punar utpadyamānena sukhaduḥkhayoḥ kim adhikam upalabdham iti. bhagavantam āvaṭyaṃ jaigīṣavya uvāca. daśasu mahāsargeṣu bhavyatvād anabhibhūtabuddhisattvena mayā narakatiryagbhavaṃduḥkhaṃ saṃpaśyatā devamanuṣyeṣu punaḥ punar utpadyamānena yat kiṃcid anubhūtaṃ tat sarvaṃ duḥkham eva pratyavaimi. bhagavān āvaṭya uvāca. yad idam āyuṣmataḥ pradhānavaśitvam anuttamaṃ ca saṃtoṣasukhaṃ kim idam api duḥkhapakṣe nikṣiptam iti. bhavagāñ jaigīṣavya uvāca — viṣayasukhāpekṣayaivedam anuttamaṃ saṃtoṣasukham uktam. kaivalyasukhāpekṣayā duḥkham eva."

Note the repetition highlighted in bold letters. This is exactly like the repetitions found in the Pali suttas. The content is also very interesting and very close to Buddhist teaching. We don’t know the age of this Sutta or the original canon to which it belonged. But Jaigishavya, the sage referred to in the passage was a revered ancient samkhya-yoga teacher - referred to in Mahabharata and also by the buddhist poet Asvaghosa.

source:
http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gretil/corpustei/transformations/html/sa_pataJjali-yogasUtra-with-bhASya.htm

  1. The second is an excerpt from ‘Maitrayaniya Upanishad’ which, in my view at least, draws on some earlier Samkhya text. That this upanishad has been influenced by Samkhya, is generally accepted in scholarly circles. It is one of the earliest upanishadic texts to use Samkhya terms with Samkhya meanings (Svetasvatara upanishad is another example but it is a metrical work, not prose).

“Te hochur bhagavan yadyevam asyātmano mahimānam sūcayasītyanyo vā parah ko-ayam ātmā sitāsitaih karmaphalair abhibhūyamānah sadasad-yonim āpadyata ityavācĪm vordhvām vā gatim dvandvair abhibhūyamānah paribhramatīti katama esha iti.
Tān hovaca, asti khalvanyo aparo bhūtātmā yo-ayam sitāsitaih karmaphalair abhibhūyamānah sadasad-yonim āpadyata ityavācĪm vordhvām vā gatim dvandvair abhibhūyamānah paribhramatīti.”

  • Maitrayaniya upanishad 3.1-2.

Note that repetition in bold here as well.

Source: Maitri (Maitrayani) Upanishad

My observation:
Samkhya school must have possessed a set of sutras quite similar to the Pali canon. It may have been in Sanskrit but it may also have been originally in a prakrit dialect. It is also difficult to conclude if they were pre-buddhist or not with this scant evidence.

But I am willing to hazard a guess that some such pre-buddhist texts must have existed - since Alara Kalama and others seem to have taught through oral repetitions (‘lapitalāpana’). It is interesting to note that Asvaghosa makes Alara Kalama a Samkhya teacher, though there is no evidence in the Pali canon for that. The term ‘Samkhya’ itself seems late and does not occur in the Pali canon, early upanishads. If my memory serves me right, the term does occur in some Svetambara Jain sutras but they seem to belong to a later strata.

@sujato Bhante, are you aware of any studies on such stray Samkhya quotes resembling Pali Suttas? Would love to read up if there are!

Sounds interesting, but what would the english be of what you shared?

I think we have to look up into Greek style.

Is there any old Greek tradition of oral transmission of prose texts? I am aware of ballads/hero songs that get recited and passed along as in other cultures, but nothing that could be compared to vedic or pali recitation… But please share your thoughts. I have picked up a little bit of Koine greek , maybe that will help me in further reading :slight_smile:

But here is a very rough unpolished translation of the two passages I quoted above:

Passage 1 :
The blessed Jaigishavya, seeing his birth and evolution through ten great Aeons - by perceiving his samkaras(pali-sankharas), attained knowledge arising from discrimination(viveka).
Then, blessed Avatya, the disciple, said to him - on account of you being through ten great Aeons, one who has the intellectual element(buddhissattva) unovercome(anabhibhuta), and who has observed the pain in hell and animal births, and who was born again and again in Deva and human births - which was faced more by you, pleasure or pain(sukha or dukkha)?
Jaigishavya said to blessed Avatya - on account of me being through ten great Aeons, one who has the intellectual element(buddhissattva) unovercome(anabhibhuta), and who has observed the pain in hell and animal births, and who was born again and again in Deva and human births - whatever i experienced, I hold that all that is pain(dukkha).
Blessed Avatya said - what, is this living in great wealth(or power) of the long-lived one - in unequalled contentment and pleasure, is that also categorised into the side of pain?
Blessed Jaigishavya said - it is only from the point of view of sensual pleasures, is it unequalled contentment and pleasure. From the point of view of Kaivalya(equivalent to Pali Nibbana; referring to a secluded state of peace) pleasure, it is only pain(dukkha).

Note: The passage is studded with many samkhya-yoga technical terms - samskara, viveka, abhibhuta, buddhisattva and Kaivalya.

Passage 2:
They said, ‘Blessed one, if you would inform us about this soul’s(atma=pali atta) greatness, who is this soul - the great(‘para’ = Brahman) or another - who, being overcome by the fruits of white and black karma, attains good and bad births, thus going to downward or upward states, overcome by the pairs(dvandva i.e. pain and pleasure), roams around - who is he?
To them he said - There is indeed another being-soul(bhutatma) who - being overcome by the fruits of white and black karma, attains good and bad births, thus going to downward or upward states, overcome by the pairs(dvandva i.e. pain and pleasure), roams around.

Note: This passage also has some Samkhya-yoga terms ‘abhibhuya’, ‘Sita-Asita Karma’, ‘dvandva’ etc; But the term ‘bhutatma’ is unique and more vedantic. I feel some stock concepts/phrases from earlier samkhya source was worked into a Vedantic form. In other portions of this upanishad also, we can find signs of that. But all this is just my impression.

I see many things Buddha said in the pali suttas. Interesting. We will have to go into pre christian greek texts to see what style they used.

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I already found a title close to that given to Buddha in greek Text. I will be looking for more.

Homeric Hymns
The Hymns were translated by Hugh G. Eseho

Whone published by the Loch Classical Library

in 1914 This document in the public

  1. TO DIONYSUS

(1.9). For some say, at Dracanum; and some, on windy Icarus, and some, in Noxon, O Heaven bom, Insewn’; and others by the deep-eddying river Alpheus that pregnant Semele hare you to Zeus the thunder-lover. And others yet, lord, say you were born in Thebes, but all these lie. The Father of men and gods gave you birth remote from men and secretly from white-armed Hera. There is a certain Nyu, a mountain most high and richly grown with woods, far off in Phoenice, near the streams of Aegyprus…

sattha devamanussanam, “teacher of gods and humans.”