Hearing sounds in samādhi, jhāna

[Sylvester]

What do you think it means? Citations pls not ex cathedras.

For me, the locative loke is a locative of reference. It would mean “not clinging to anything with reference to the world”. What does a Stream Winner not cling with reference to the world/suffering/The All/the 5 Aggregates? She does not take up the world as " This I am, This is mine, This is my self" - SN 24.2.

So, my reason for understanding DN 15 as referring to all Noble Ones.

Are you responding to SN 22.8?

[cjmacie]

@Sylvester

And again, it seems like it’s a cultural thing. Presumably, French usage?

@silence

Notice that you use the words ‘when it says’, which are clearly different from ‘if it said’ (with a conditional), words one would normally use when ‘giving an hypothetical’

While I may not be a native English speaker, I am not familiar with this distinction above being so rigid in English. …

As a native English (American) speaker, “when” can definitely have the sense of “if” – as in “when I do …” in the sense of “were I to do …” . In fact, in German (English being in origin a Germanic language), the word “wenn” actually has a rather stronger leaning towards “if”.

[Badscooter]

“If it said” and “when it says” are very bad comparisons. “When” has a sense of time. “When it says” gives the sense that something was said already. “If it said” gives the impression that something wasnt said but questions if it were then how would it be analyzed.

“When” deals with time. “If” deals with conditions, or conditionality.
I

[cjmacie]

@Badscooter

“If it said” and “when it says” are very bad comparisons. “When” has a sense of time. “When it says” gives the sense that something was said already. “If it said” gives the impression that something wasnt said but questions if it were then how would it be analyzed.

“When” deals with time. “If” deals with conditions, or conditionality.

“If” as conditionality can be divorced from time only in its usage in the mathematical logic sense, which is a purely conceptual realm. The Buddha’s teaching repeatedly dismisses such abstract concepts, and uses conditionality in the phenomenological sense of mental behavior, of the progression of experienced mental processes and the consequences of intentional action (kamma), which can only occur in a temporal framework.

For instance, as Nyanaponika Thera points out (in “Abhidhamma Studies – Buddhist Exploration of Consciousness and Time”), the last book of the (Theravadan) abhidhamma, the Patthana, analyzes in extensive detail how the 24 types of conditionality play out. He characterizes this as working out of the temporal dimension mental behavior, while the first book, the Dhammasangani, investigates the spatial demension, the structure of momentary mental activities (“citta-s”) and their substructures (cetasika-s). The Patthana shows how those spatial structures change from one to the next, and in this context, as in general, “change” is a virtual synonym for “time”.