Helping the George Floyd cause with advice on restraint

[pjteh]

Thank you to everyone for your thoughtful comments: this thread was one of the most measured and sensible I’ve read so far, and I would like to thank everyone for your thoughts.

I’ve been reflecting on this issue a lot recently, not least because it’s in-your-face (like when Black Out Tuesday happened: I didn’t know what it was, and I initially thought my Instagram was buggy or that the service was down) But also that in Singapore (where I am from and based), there have been a lot of people posting on social media, and there is an ongoing debate spreading, with people saying “Don’t look at America: look at ourselves! What about Singaporean Chinese privilege and racism??” And so on.

I have a few thoughts to contribute back to this thread.
1.Two of the things that have been said here that I fully agree with:

• As Ven @Akaliko (hi Bhante! it’s been a while since I showed you my Apple watch outside the monks’ office at Bodhinyana monastery ) said, inaction is also action. Hence we shouldn’t just sit silently and go into the fourth jhana, and come out of it preaching perfect equanimity. There was the quote of the Buddha advocating speaking against the unwholesome act of killing living beings in AN4.99. There are also multiple suttas where the Buddha speaks out against unwholesome actions. Enough said.

• The fundamental question boils back down to: what should we do? And I agree with @Viveka and @Sumano’s points that it probably ultimately boils down to an individual choice of action, and it is worthy for us to reflect back to why we hold our views about our actions or inactions.

2. I think we just have to be aware of the dangers to our own minds, as we act. I am personally quite uncomfortable with the recommendations that some celebrities are putting out on social media. Things like “if you’re not dismantling the power structure, you’re implicitly supporting it”, or that one should feel guilty about one’s own privilege.

I’m fine with exercising political agency. By all means, vote for the candidates to change. And yes, protest, as is your right in America. But guilt-tripping an entire population is probably not wholesome nor helpful at all: it just turns off potential allies, seeds a lot of unwholesome thoughts and emotions, while generating more suffering with the guilt.
Even when talking about the most amoral puttjana (not including the current CinC who wasn’t born yet), the Buddha almost always referred to them as ‘worthy beings’. Most of the privileged class are probably just clueless, and just as horrified; guilt-tripping them for privilege is blaming them for something that they have little individual control over.

And as a Not Rich Asian living in the city made famous by the movie “Crazy Rich Asians”, I’d also like to point out that the Buddha Gotama was probably an early proto-Crazy-Rich-Asian, and clearly had a lot of societal privileges growing up (as depicted in AN3.39). What motivated him to leave that lifestyle wasn’t guilt, but insight. So we need to do more to educate, to seed more allies, to then shift the ground for change in a wholesome way.

The call for upending existing societal power structures is, imo, also problematic to me, as it is a road down samsara that is fundamentally super messy, but also that it is ultimately questionable. Switching societal power structures often doesn’t change anything: one form of bigotism and defilement is often simply switched for another. The biggest danger is that of a bait-and-switch of motivations/intentions: one can start first with compassion and a sense of right/wrong but as events build up, they lead to anger burning up the entire mind. Just look at the French Revolution (and almost every historical revolution), which started with ideals and ended with guillotines.

And so, I think we should act as individuals, and do whatever is within our power to right the wrongs, but always constantly checking our own motivations, our own mental states, so that we don’t waste our kamma by having the motivations and intentions defiled by “righteous anger”.

Just two cents from this Crazy Not Rich Asian please. And much metta to everyone who is suffering.

[anon29387788]

Checking in today, this topic caught my eye as I’ve family in the States; I’ve tried to educate myself (as much as is possible) just so I could find some positives to communicate to my Mum, to lessen her worry; and also, so I wasn’t talking from disconnection and too much ignorance when communicating with family there.

The level of restraint and good speech in this thread is remarkable considering the topic. I applaud Westbury08 for having the courage to share and ask for feedback.

@Westbury08

As the “2 acrobats” suggestion.

The two acrobats (SN 47.19), is a story the message of which is that by looking after ourselves, we look after others. And how do we look after ourselves? The Buddha answers:

By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

As credible teachers (Bhante Sujato, Ajahn Brahm, Ajahn Brahmali) have pointed out, the 4 establishments of mindfulness are about bringing to fulfillment the last 4 factors of the ten fold path (AN 10.103). And as you all know, the Path (more commonly known as having 8 factors - and referred to thus all over the Suttas) is sequential.

So to bring about the development of the 4 establishments of mindfulness, one must cultivate the preceding factors.

The preceding factors are a deep acknowledgement that we don’t live in a bubble.

If we did live in a bubble, we wouldn’t have to worry about Right View (yes, that’s also to do with our relationship to ourselves and the world - to me it’s Sila informed by Wisdom), Right Intention, Right Speech, Right Action, Right Livelihood and Right Effort.

These factors offer generalised advice that we must apply to our personal experiences; they call us to have a very specific view and relationship to our own specific social contexts and spheres. To do so we understand them through the lens of Right View, we engage with them using the guidelines offered by the other Sila (Virtue) elements.

Yes, these are couched in the negative mostly - for example, “not killing” as opposed to preserving life; because not doing something casts a much wider net - it includes actions that do no harm, and intentions that are beautiful and actions that promote peace and love. So it’s left very general so we can apply it to our very specific situations and our differing kamma and personalities and needs.

If we sit patiently and honestly with how we feel about all this (these terrible murders and structural racism), we may have the courage to see what is in our heart - both the wholesome and unwholesome - and offer love to both. If you feel hatred towards the bad guy (and he did such a very bad thing), then love yourself in that moment, knowing that such emotion went unloved (and misunderstood through Wrong View) in him for so long that it grew and grew until he committed a callous murder in public.

Such practices offer hope. They offer unexpected insights and resources and self-understanding. They honour our humanity and our vulnerable limits and capacities. When you know these and respect them, you’ll be able to ask yourself what you feel able to do to improve the situation - what you feel able to give your heart to - knowing, armed as you are with your cultivation and study of Right View - that all you can do is help a little and that it may only be a very little and that all things change.

It is through reflecting that all things change that we can offer what help and compassion that we can. Anicca is not a reason to turn away or switch off. It’s a reason to feel how when we don’t open our hearts to its manifestations, we suffer even more and so, seeing this, we move towards compassion for ourselves and others. We ask, not how can I limit what I do (not that anyone is asking this) but rather, how can I expand what I do - in a way that serves me, as well as others.

The two acrobats are not about helping me, not about helping you, they’re about helping ‘us’. That’s a teaching by my precious, loving, kind, wise teacher, Ajahn Brahm.

It might be that you join a march, or it might be you sit quietly and spread loving kindness with all your heart to those that are marching.

The Sutta then asks, and answers:

“And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, lovingkindness, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

So we have a soft heart, but patience teaches us and resources us to accept that there are no quick and lasting solutions. But still we engage, because the Buddha’s advice was to do so in a way that fulfills the 8 Fold Path - a thing that has to be deeply personal.

So what positives did I report to my worried Mother?

I reported that there were many examples of law enforcement and military personnel who supported protestors. That I’d found at least one example of (black) protestors protecting a stranded (white) policeman. That some states had begun to change their regulations. That protests had become bigger and more peaceful. That the protests included people of many colours and generations - but that there were a lot of young people. That was where it was the last time I had a quick look.

My personal and specific 8 Fold Path tells me it’s time to stop looking - at least for now. But only I can know that for myself, for as the saying goes, the Buddha only points the way.

With metta

[anon29387788]

@Viveka

Everywhere we look - with no ‘solutions’ evident. So easy to succumb to depression in these circumstances.

Yes, this is so very possible.

But if we use what the Buddha offers us, in elucidating what Right View is, we can shift the focus of the goal - instead of seeking for solutions, we just (as Ajahn Brahm often says), give without expecting anything back in return. That leads to the opposite of depression. And it’s also rather essential to many of the factors of the 8 Fold Path.

[Erika_ODonnell]

@Westbury08

The way not to make this “privilege” is to do more renunciation, tightening up virtue, and of course more kindfulness IMO. I’m “saving myself” so to speak. As the “2 acrobats” suggestion. Any thoughts?

After reading this thread and thinking about it, my own conclusion is that it depends on whether what you (don’t) do is coming from greed, hatred and delusion or not.

As has been pointed out already in this thread, both action and inaction can come from wholesome or unwholesome intentions.

Take an upcoming protest, I think it’s possible to:

• Skillfully go to the protest as a way to take a stand against killing and racialized violence, coming from a place of non-killing and non-violence yourself and encouraging others to also commit to non-killing and non-violence, showing disapproval of killing and violence for the benefit of the surrounding community.
• To skillfully avoid a protest, e.g. thinking “going to this protest will make me even more angry than I am already. If I go, I might do something bad out of anger”

I think it’s also OK to avoid protests to avoid getting tear-gassed or shot by a rubber bullet (which is quite dangerous). There are tons of good things one can do that is not being out in the streets.

For the sake of equanimity, I think it’s also important to remember that even if you out of pure compassion and wisdom act (or not), people will still criticize you for it:

… O Atula! Indeed, this is an ancient practice, not one only of today: they blame those who remain silent, they blame those who speak much, they blame those who speak in moderation. There is none in the world who is not blamed.

There never was, there never will be, nor is there now, a person who is wholly blamed or wholly praised. (Dhp 221-234)

[anon29387788]

Sorry for the multiple replies…

Asking questions and seeking learning and understanding and forgiving are also actions that may later have other more obviously wholesome consequences.

So I could ask, what are the specific structures and systems of US society that cause Black Americans to be disadvantaged? What are the outcomes of this disadvantage in comparison to other demographics? How does this correlate to policing, attitudes of police and fear and stress among police officers also (because fear and stress excarcebate both violence and hatred)? What specific rules and laws need changing or need to be introduced in order to eliminate strucural racism and to support police so that they can grow patience and emotional maturity despite having jobs that would generally do the opposite?

If such kinds of questions are not asked or discussed widely enough, nothing moves forward. And even then it would be so slowly. Can we be so patient and equanimous that we can be persistent, or support others to be, or pass the baton to others when we honour the fact that we are human and need to step back? Can we care and love peace that much that we can act from peace and patience and an equanimity that seeks no outcome but service itself? Sometimes asking and hearing is a good thing to do and who knows where it leads?

My asking and learning might not mean that I directly effect any concrete or dramatic change. But it might influence such changes in a way that I cannot currently see. Sometimes people in power just need to know that lots of people don’t like something - because they’re human, frail, unenlightened and want to keep their power - before they will make any changes.

Don’t minimise whatever role/action your heart tells you to take. Even listening and learning with an open heart can have an impact. Everyone’s goodwill matters. This world is not just matter - it’s mind too.

@Erika_ODonnell could you please provide a reference for that quote? It’s pretty awesome.

[Erika_ODonnell]

@Satananda

P.S.: Hoping I haven’t offended anyone. Of course, I could be answered with newspaper articles saying otherwise. But instead of engaging in a battle of numbers, which would have no place here, then I’ll ask just one question: how do you reconcile the claim that there is a systemic racism against blacks with the fact that this is precisely the narrative that we hear over and over again in all the major media of the same system?

You are taking this thread off-topic.

@Satananda

Of course, I could be answered with newspaper articles saying otherwise. But instead of engaging in a battle of numbers, which would have no place here

Please remove your own references and sources in your post.

[Satananda]

@Erika_ODonnell

You are taking this thread off-topic.

How is my message off topic? I am responding to the accusations of privilege and systemic racism that everyone has been talking about from the beginning…

[Sumano]

@Satananda

How is my message off topic? I am responding to the accusations of privilege and systemic racism that everyone has been talking about from the beginning…

I think what @Erika_ODonnell is pointing out is that the thread has been straying off-topic for quite some time, and several of the posts—mine included—have departed from giving the original poster advice on what to do and turned towards our own personal opinions on the events currently happening.

[Westbury08]

What I’ve reflected on with white privilege, is to not take them for granted. To be more frugal than your poorest of allies/friends/comrades in this life. And to listen as deeply as we can to those whom which we make eye contact. The suffering we feel underlying the state of the world, is the very ability I have to deeply listen to the cries of the world. That ability to renounce, not take my life for granted, and to be a lending hand in what I’ve discerned to be reality is my respect to the black community. I do not know the ends and outs of pictures, videos, people on podiums or otherwise. I am very skeptical about putting faith in political opinions. I do know how to be a smile, a mechanic, a student or a yogi to those in my sphere of experience though. And because of hearing the news I have expanded my circle by sparking conversation with those who would normally be considered “stranger”. I’m personally in the process of renouncing and finding simplicity, because I haven’t even started the life of a bhikkhu yet. Once I have sufficient training, I may have a more appropriate response. This is the path I have faith in, and may those who have the ability, by all means take their appropriate stances as well. May the energy accumulated liberate many beings along the way. Thank you all for your inputs

[anon29387788]

@anon29387788

@Erik_ODonnell could you please provide a reference for that quote? It’s pretty awesome

Thank you. I wonder who Atula was…

[Gabriel]

@Westbury08

Anyone see anything wrong with this approach, and not being involved intensely with the specific “police brutality, and black lives matter”. Isn’t this wholesome?

To first state the obvious: The specific situation is distinctly a US problem. People in other countries have other social/justice issues: different forms of racism, poverty, castes, and other systemic inequalities.

When the question is ‘How do I end my suffering in this situation?’ - I would first ask ‘as who am I asking?’

I’d say that a rather ‘Buddhist’ answer is: ‘As a human’ - not as a man/woman white/black/other color, rich/middle class/poor, educated/uneducated. Original Buddhism is not very interested in these labels - at least if we enter jhana we don’t do so as privileged whites or underprivileged others. We enter with a human mind with its inbuilt flaws and capabilities. So I feel that a ‘Buddhist’ response would be to be compassionate regardless of the labels.

But if I ask the question as a social item, an object of society, then why to bring Buddhism into the picture? Normal society has enough tools of decency, compassion, ethics, political attitudes, egoism, self-care, group-identification etc. to respond - including the according neuroticism that follows every unsolvable problem. When as an individual I want to respond to a social issue - at least I think - that I have to accept the pain of not being powerful enough and not having the right answers. Which is not an argument to disengage btw.

[Westbury08]

Thanks Gabriel, that’s a good clarification. It’s a bit like saying saying our health insurance plan is “we’re going to die” in that we’re missing the point of the practical application. If we don’t have the credentials, ask someone with the suitable knowledge instead.

[anon29387788]

I want to note a couple more things.

1. These winds of kilesa (unwholesome states or defilements) that sweep the world mirror those in our own mind. Just like in our own mind, if the truth is not exposed to awareness and love, it will never transform into wholesome states, instead truth suppressed will turn into societal disease and impact all.

2. Such disease eventually touches us all. You may have seen the video of the elderly white man who appeared to be gently approaching police? They must have been so deeply trained to feel threatened - because they pushed him. He fell backwards onto the hard ground. White privilege will not protect you forever.

This world will end, corrupt, decay. It is because we know that, that we should care for it in whatever way we can. For as it corrupts it will hurt so many, including those we love and ourselves.

[Dhammanando]

@anon29387788

Thank you. I wonder who Atula was…

He isn’t mentioned anywhere else in the Tipiṭaka. The Dhammapada Commentary gives him as an upāsaka:

Atula.– An upāsaka of Sāvatthi. He went with five hundred others to listen to Revata, who, however, being fond of solitude, would not teach him. In anger he went to Sāriputta who, on hearing his grievances, discoursed at length on the Abhidhamma. Annoyed thereat he repaired to Ānanda, to whom he told the story. Ānanda taught them a very short discourse, and the lay disciples in despair sought the Buddha. The Buddha pointed out to them that they had been too hasty in their condemnation. At the end of the discourse Atula and his companions gained the First Fruit of the Path. DhA.iii.325‑9.
– Dictionary of Pali Proper Names

https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/English-Texts/Buddhist-Legends/17-07.htm

[anon29387788]

@anon29387788

give without expecting anything back in return

@Viveka, I realised it was not obvious when I said it, and I want to make it obvious… You are giving sooo much here. And I hope you get masses of goodness back in return. Thank you so very much for putting this goodness out into the world.

That goes for all you @moderators .

[karl_lew]

After four days here, nobody has mentioned Derek Chauvin, who is the police officer who killed George Floyd.

May Derek Chauvin find an end to suffering and a path to peace and love.
Silence is also divisive speech.

[UpasakaMichael]

@karl_lew

After four days here, nobody has mentioned Derek Chauvin, who is the police officer who killed George Floyd.

This, to me, is part of the interesting questions to be answered. It was learned that Mr. Floyd and the would-be police officer, Chauvin, had both worked together as security at a nightclub in Minneapolis. They apparently knew each other. A news reporter interviewed people that knew both of them, and said that Mr. Floyd, though he was physically imposing, was a sweetheart to people. They said that Chauvin had a reputation as a jerk, and was aggressive. It may be that someone with some sociopathy, or hatred toward certain people, ended up on a police force. One conclusion that might be drawn is that police departments will need to move forward with training and vetting, to ensure that personality types like Chauvin never end up in positions of power such as a police officer. That police are trained to de-escalate situations, and to learn to use peace ( ie “peace officers”) instead of violence as a first resort.

Many police officers in American cities see violence every day. In Chicago, young Black men kill each other by the dozens almost every day (see Chicago’s most violent day in 60 years: 18 murders in 24 hours - Chicago Sun-Times) . Many police even avoid policing these neighborhoods, out of fear of violence. The causes of violence among young people has to be identified; I submit these are complex causes. The causes of violence in police need to be identified; I submit these are complex causes. My hope that as Buddhists, we can have the insight to perceive what the causes and possible solutions might be to runaway violence in our cities.

[Viveka]

Dear Kay thanks for your feed back! And I graciously accept the praise, on behalf of all the many people who work behind the scenes to make this a good place

I’ll enter it into the “praise and blame” ledger

Seriously though, thanks to ALL members, for making this such a positive community!

And with regards to ‘giving’, it is the ‘self perpetuating’ gift - the more one gives, the richer one is… and, given that Metta is an infinite resource… give away as much as you can, and become a millionnaire!

[ERose]

I have witnessed “normal” “sane” people, even usually generous and polite people, become infected with mob thinking and actions, after periods of extended stress and fear and frustration.
I have seen most of those same people deny they did anything wrong or blameworthy during those periods, sometimes while or after viewing and hearing video records of their actions.
I have seen most of those people rationalize their behavior, effectively denying any responsibility or recognition of effects.
Delusion, prior to Stream entry, part of the nature of self views. It seems impossble that “I” did that. (That “I” is generic, not referencing this writer more than any other writer.)

Such identity view can, I think, be questioned, interrupted, given up.

After stream entry, perhaps, every action (mental, verbal, bodily) matters in terms of development of the Path. Is it kusala, or akusala? Does it cultivate progress on the Noble Eight Fold Path, or not? How is deep knowledge of the Four Noble Truths found in experience? Perhaps life becomes like that.

Circumstances, kamma, efforts can be perceived as unique, or as fitting observed described patterns. That’s not a contradiction. Thus each life makes its way - one hopes, towards liberation.

[Martin]

Being Irish, I’ve had my share of racism over the years. Challenging ignorance is never easy, but it helps to know that other people understand.