That is not how it works though. They want to not be Hindus as well as enjoy the affirmative action policies of the government that exist for Hindus that are socially downtrodden, so they identify as Hindus for benefits and identify as Buddhists to vent against Hinduism.
There is no theocratically mandated slavery now in India, hasnt been for a few centuries at least.
It is at their behest that Buddhism is identified as a part of Hinduism, so if they claim Buddhism is free of caste identity they will not be able to get university seats with 35 marks when the general competition demands 95 marks out of 100.
They wish to blame Hinduism for the caste system while enjoying the privileges that it confers them.
For many itâs a philosophical battle. Instead of merely wanting to assimilate Buddhists into Hinduism, they simply try to verify the idea that Buddha rejected the Vedas outwardly but inwardly believed in them, Buddha constructing the Buddhist Cosmological standpoint and lists of Devas with the Vedasâ help (as well as personal revelation).
They ultimately believe that Buddha is an Avatara or Incarnation their Supreme Lord Krishna or Vishnu, along the lines of many who descend into this world, being God. This is what Hindus generally believe as well and they are so Dogmatic that they donât read the unique and well crafted Dhamma that the Buddha brought in that isnât at odds with their Sanatana Dharma (in my personal opinion), but is of the Spiritual Nature of reaching for an attempted goal long forgotten by many. Yet with the help of Buddha and Buddhist reform many modern Hindu movements have gained very advanced Spiritual Ideas and advancement in some level of Right View, incorporating elements of Buddhadhamma into their Hindu and Hindu-offshoot Traditions.
But Buddhism and what Buddha brought into this world is unique as it stands. It is available (again, in my personal opinion) to every mind and every species of life. However, the practitioners we know today and the ones we will Dhammically Advance with are the ones carrying out the Tradition as we know it.
So I believe it should be the Buddhists who should have control of this Temple, because whether out of kindness or common courtesy, we cannot ignore the figure of Gautama Buddha who gave His whole life to propagate the welfare of others by Dhamma and Skillful Means, and the True Aspect of Supreme Perfect Enlightenment.
Because the people of the other religions claim that caste doesnt exist in their religion and caste based divisions should not be recognized (by the government) in their new religions. So caste-based affirmative action cannot be applied to their new religions by their own demand. So they want to self identify as Hindus to receive caste-based benefits, while at the same time decry the caste basis on which they gain those benefits, and decry the Hindu identity that enables them to claim those caste based benefits. You must ask them that question.
Unless one were closing oneâs eyes to the obvious, one would notice that in India, the caste system exists among almost all religions in practice, it exists in Buddhists, Hindus, Jains, Sikhs, Christians, Muslims, as well as those that claim to be atheists. Those who are the most vocal anti-caste campaigners in all the Hindu and non-Hindu religions in India also demand (and have got permanent) caste based privileges and caste identity certificates from the government. That is a strange way to demand abolshment of caste when you wont allow it to be abolished.
The caste system does not mean the Vedic varna system, the caste system precedes the Vedic religion and may have originated in the Indus Valley civilization. The two are often confused by non-Indians who think that caste is ipso facto Hindu/Vedic in origin and that it doesnt exist in other religions.
This narrative is used by many in right wing to twist history and suits for political benefit. I will try to respond to key aspects raised
Caste System is not originated in India -Caste systemâs roots lie in ancient Indian social structure.Manu(100 AD) formalised verna/caste system, people doesnât fit into 4 vernas were forced to social and ritual restrictions, reinforcing their marginalization. Hence, its not originated in India is a false claim. .
Other religion following Caste- Again incorrect, Jain/Sikh religion originated in India, they donât promote case system but they have sects like Jain(Digambara vs. ĹvÄtÄmbara) Sikh(Khalsa/Ravidasia/Nirankaris etc. There are no evidences of Caste oppressions.
Caste System exist in Muslim/Christian?: Yes, some level of caste system exists in converted Muslims and in Christian, the reason for that is Brahmin were the first one to convert and later lower class people converted to these religion to escape caste oppression. Indian Muslim and Christians have different sects, but upper castes convertes doesnât want to share space worship with converted Dalits, hence in some places they have different churches. Pasmanda Muslim from north India especially face caste issues. But, this was borrowed by upper caste converts from Hindu or Brahmanical Religion to target religion.
I am Ambedkarite and a direct beneficiary of affirmative action.Hence I would like to comment on the view on affirmative action expressed earlier. I was born Buddhist as my Parents converted from Hindu to Buddhism in 1956 when Dr Ambedkar announced the renunciation of Hindu religion. Even though I am born Buddhist, I faced Caste discrimination in academia and in jobs in a certain level as people discovered where I came from ie Ambedkarite legacy.So, changing religion doesnt change the reality of Caste discrimination. Affirmative action was introduced with efforts by Dr Ambedkar, he negotiated with British, it was not given by Hindus. Hindus donât want to end Caste Superiority but want to end affirmative action which is helping millions of Dalits/oppressed caste to get equal opportunities in education and jobs. 15 % of the population is still controlling Business, judiciary, Media, Politics etc.After just 3-4 decades of affirmative action things started changing, as the oppressed are now getting educated and rising up for their rights, same hindus are getting jealous and maligning affirmative action. Caste atrocities in India are still rampant, Dalits/Adivasis are getting beaten up for taking marriage processions, revering their idols, entering in temples etc Even money canât change the social status of a Dalit. Hence, we are fighting and keep fighting against oppression and discrimination.
That is not what I said. In fact Iâve said above that Caste System did exist in India even thousands of years before Manu, even in the Indus Valley Civilization. Itâs origins are pre-vedic.
The vedic religion does not seek to regulate the thousands of castes that make up the caste system - it rather works on a different system - a class system of 4 classes (varnas) of people - brahmins/scholarly-class, kshatriyas/political-military-class, vaishya/mercantile-class and shudra/worker-artisan-class.
Manu does not formalize the caste system, he only refers to pre-existing Vedic varna system (which was common to both the Buddhist view of society and the Brahmin view of society). They both refer to the varna system as the pre-existing social model of vedic society. It is not that people suddenly became aware of this model after manu referred to it in the early christian era.
This vedic varna model â is not the caste system that has thousands of castes each with its own customs, languages, lifestyles, religious views and social boundaries. Buddhism and Hinduism too recognizes the varna model but not the pre-existing caste system.
The caste system (which is not directly connected to Hindu religion) operates outside the purview of Hindu/Vedic religious doctrine, and persists in all religions in India. Even in 97% Muslim Pakistan there is caste -
For anyone who argues that the caste system itself or discrimination on the basis of caste doesnt exist in other religions in India, they may be advised to broaden their own knowledge of it.
Thatâs untrue and trying to brush aside reality. See
Again that is trying to brush aside reality. There is a caste-system even within Dalits (an Intra-Dalit caste system) with its own internal subdivisions, heirarchies and consequent discriminations. Google would help broaden your perspectives.
If Dalits and others are so vocal against your caste system, why dont you give it up entirely? Why demand its enforcement it in Indian law by seeking caste-based legal privileges in elections, education, jobs, business opportunities, and in every aspect of life? And why pretend that it is due to Hindu religious mandate that other religions have a caste system. Why do the so-called people who are at the receiving end of caste-based discrimination, have and enforce an internal caste system within themselves?
Caste exists irrespective of religion in India. Even atheists observe castes in India.
Yes, but you are barking up the wrong tree. I am not saying it should be based on religion. It should be based on actual present-day social parameters of each individual, not just the castes of birth, or their religious beliefs. Even within castes, there are sub-castes, and those sub castes have sub-sub-castes, and casteism exists in each of them. It is not, as some might assume, a system imposed from above.
The existence of the caste system and caste based discriminations in other religions in India is denied by those very religions. Therefore they refuse to acknowledge the problem by sweeping it under the carpet. If they accept that castes exist in all Indian religions in the same way as Hinduism, they cannot thereafter use Hinduism as their bogeyman. The anti-caste campaigners themselves enforce casteism in India by using their caste (or their ancestorsâ castes) to seek special privileges in all aspects of day-to-day life. There thousands of millionaire dalits who still seek and receive special privileges on the basis of caste.
Thanks Parag. If I might let people know, Parag is a member of our Ambedkarite Buddhist community here in Sydney. They are the former Dalits who escaped caste oppression through converting to Buddhism under the leadership of Dr. Ambedkar.
Yes, and the entire focus of the Ambedkarite Buddhists is to not be Hindus. They donât want to be swallowed up in a system that reduced them to theocratically mandated slavery.
Yes but you are ignoring historical impressions of Buddhism among the Indians. They are not guided by what you say or think, they are guided by what they consider their history and their traditions.
The Buddhist vs Hindu identities were only treated as separate about 200 years ago. Before that Buddhism in India was treated as one of the Hindu traditions. Hindu simply meant âIndianâ and not a religion by itself (whether opposed to Buddhism or not).
Considered heterodox as nÄstika but yeah. The term âreligionâ is a hotly debated item. Some Theravadins do not even consider Mahayana to be the same religion. Hell, even the terms Ästika / nÄstika are contested terms that mean different things for different traditions.
I understand the perspective that Buddhism is considered under the umbrella of Dharma Paths (similar worldview, with a shared perspective of karma, rebirth, samsara; differing in methodology and goals). However, thereâs also the thorny issue of some Ästika priests assuming to talk for every Dharma path.
Is Mormonism a part of Christianity? Is Messianic Jews Judaist and/or Christian? Are Alawites Muslim or not? Not easy questions to answer.
No I am saying the terms Hinduism & Buddhism did not even exist to mean the name of specific religions before the 19th century or thereabouts, so how would Buddhists before that time have considered themselves to be non-Hindus (or vice versa)?
I meant it is not like TheravÄda and MahÄyÄna, or astika nÄstika - which terms were understood a long time ago, but there was no such distinction as Hinduism vs Buddhism in Pre-modern times. Buddhism may have had an identity as it started by taking the Buddha as the founder, but Hinduism as a whole claims no single founder and no singular identity even in modern times. A few centuries ago, Hindu literally meant Indian, not the name of a religion. In some 250 year old English books written by colonial people, Indian Muslims are called Hindu Muslims.
As you are agreeing Vedic religion or Brahmism established Verna System.Evolution of Jatis/Caste System is largely influenced by the Varna system. Over time, the four broad Varnas got divided into thousands of sub-castes (known as jatis), often based on occupation, region, or social status
Common Charateristics of Verna and Jast(Caste ) system
Enforces strict social segregation
Promote Endogamy, marriage within oneâs caste/Verna
Purity Certain castes/Verna are considered "pure than other
Restricted social mobility
system is hereditary nature
PLs refer Manusmruti Verse 3.13: The text states that marriages should generally occur within the same Varna and even within the same gotra (family lineage), preserving the purity of the social order
Pls refer Annihilation of Caste for detail discourse on CASTE SYSTEM
Hence, Verna and Caste System are related originated, conceptulised and implemented by Vedic/Brahmnic ideology.
Caste System and Caste Discremination is now global problem. As Dr Ambedkar said " If Hindus migrate to other regions on earth, Indian caste would become a world problem." Which is now evident now CISCO/Google US tech Industry case , BAPS Temple case , recent report by AHRC on caste Discremination in Australia, it spreading all over where Hindus are growing. Historically, Hindus present in Pakistan/Bangladesh etc south asian contries hence today having some instances of Caste atrocities in those contries point to Hindus not other religion
This is your own speculation. Are you aware that even Dravidian-speaking cultures in South India have castes but dont have the 4-varna system? Their castes have nothing to do with varnas. The same is the case for the rest of India, people would readily know their caste names but they would not know their varnas - because castes are more deep rooted than varnas - and it is not true that varnas got subdivided into 1000s of castes.
That is untrue, you read it again for your own understanding. Marriage within the same gotra (family/clan) is forbidden, it is considered to be incestual.
That is Ambedkarite propaganda. I read a lot of original literature in Sanskrit and I dont find any information that caste is implemented by Vedic religion, I only find varna & ashrama (varnashrama dharma), caste and caste system are not regulated in or by the Vedic tradition.
It will exist wherever Indian culture exists, not because of Hinduism. For example there are Hindus in Ghana, Africa, who practice Hinduism but there is no caste system there - because those Hindus are not Indians.
Similarly there are ISKCON followers all over the world, and a lot of them are not Indians, so they dont have the caste system, whereas everyone who follows ISKCON and who are from India have the caste system. So caste system is not Hindu but is an Indian social system not created by Hinduism.
