This might indicate that the state achieved is not the first jhana but some sort of other ecstatic state concocted by the mind. As many well respected meditators with years of experience on the cushion report, the first jhana is not a state where “external awareness dims” and “internal verbalizations fade” (as described in the study you alluded to) but a state where the body and it’s five senses are totally absent and only mind conciousness remains. While there are also experts who disagree, to me their view seems to be “close to lust, close to bondage, close to delighting, close to holding, close to clinging”, to borrow a phrase from the Buddha in MN 60.
Also, any kind of meditation done correctly should increase the ability to stay focused so your current hypothesis doesn’t really make sense to me.
do you think there’s some sort of spiritual reality which jhana experience seems to connect a meditator with and which brain chemistry has nothing to do with?
i don’t see that as a problem as long as those euphoric states don’t depend on sensuality, this is what the Buddha defined jhana as
still i tend to reluctantly and in a sense disappointedly agree that all ‘spirituality’ and especially altered states of consciousness is after all must be nothing but the result of cerebral activity
This latest study is not my study is a study reallizado by experts on the only expert meditator in jhānas (all) found English speaking.
It does not say stop the senses because it can not be verified by instruments. The cessation of verbalization, which is most significant is demonstrated by the inactivity Brioca area. The most spectacular esfecto undoubtedly is the cessation of breathing during all the time that remains in that state.
And not. Consciousness does not “remain”, also dissolved along with the other senses, including proprioception.
It is not aware of anything to be out of that state. And the effect lasts for up to eleven days. SSC only the effects are permanent.
… The “experts” are experiencing.
That cessation of reactive verbalization is the most significant effect after meditation. With other techniques, the complete cessation of verbalization is achieved, for a predefined time. And with it, the conceptualization.
I don’t think of it quite in those terms but I have come to believe that conciousness is something that isn’t just a product of brain chemistry as a materialistic world view would suggest. I do think though that mental activity conditions brain chemistry and brain chemistry conditions mental activity, so brain chemistry obviously has it’s part in experiencing jhana.
I would tend towards agreeing with you but there’s also a possibility that the “jhana light” some are propagating might actually depend on sensuality. If one can still feel the body, the body probably still has an influence on the mind. To me, the real danger is that people will believe they’ve reached the top of the mountain without realizing that they’re actually standing at a small peak at the base of the mountain.
Some years back I read of an NDE of a woman who had been totally blind all her life. She said that she had never seen anything, even her dreams had been absolutely non-visual. If I remember correctly she even said she hadn’t experienced blackness which most people with sight would think is the opposite of sight (light). But during her brief physical death she could see what was happening around her body with perfect clarity. Without any developed brain circuitry to process or interpret visual input. I think this account was in Conciousness Beyond Life by Dr. Pim van Lommel. I realize this is just anecdotal evidence but it’s not the only one of it’s kind I’ve come across.
If we mostly read scientific papers, we’ll start to see that the materialist world view is right and we’ll be able to explain away any inconcistencies. If we hang around religous or spiritual circles we’ll start seeing things in a totally different way. Our view conditions our perception and our perception conditions our thoughts which in turn condition our view. The best way we can be really sure about what’s going on is to take our conciousness to the absolute limit beyound all views following the Buddha’s instructions. And I realize this is also just a view I happen to have at the moment
Just to clarify, are you saying you have documented the cessation of breathing in your own studies? And are we talking about the cessation of breathing of the body, not the cessation of the perception of breathing by the meditator? If so, for how long? That would really be something.
If the individual is really invested in the cultivation of the path there is no such danger. It may mean the journey will be longer than needed but definitely joyful and free of the dangers of the gross states of existence.
It is really sad to see some people leaving the path for they are afraid of enjoying it. That’s exactly what the Buddha seemed to have rediscovered: a path which is noble, eventually unfolds into the full unconditioning and is pleasurable to oneself and those around.
For most us, unenlightened things, with our embedded no pain no gain algorithm this is indeed the ultimate heresy!
There’s also this detailed analysis of the first jhana formula by Bhante Sujato. Quite long but well worth a listen in my oppinion. It also briefly touches upon khanika and upacara samadhi and ekkagata.
They actually are external links but Discourse creates a player for them automatically.
You should be able to copy the address by right-clicking the player and selecting “Copy audio location” or “Copy audio address” or “Copy audio URL” (FF, Chrome, IE). In Edge you have to select “Inspect element” or “View source”. No idea about Safari, I’m afraid.
I do think you are trying to squeeze a whole lot more out of that statement than is really intended. Leigh is just saying the sutta is inconsistent and poorly put together – same point that Ajahns Brahmali and Sujato make – though they go into much more detail. Leigh’s discussion here is not about the factors of jhana but the authenticity of a sutta.
Various suttas & sets of dhammas (such as the iddhipada) clearly state mindfulness, energy & zeal (as iddhipada) contribute to jhana thus they must be factors of jhana…
An entirely different topic. My point was to what extent one should rely on a sutta that is not considered authentic – apologies for not making that explicitly clear.
As for one-pointedness, it has been shown from MN 19, SN 48.10, MN 117, etc, that ekaggata is a prerequisite to jhana.
I found it in SN 48.10 and MN 117 – didn’t see it in the MN 19. Leigh says it is also in MN 43. Who you gonna believe? A bunch of suttas with 4 factors or three or so with 5? and does it really matter? I am not into the whole jhana wars thing - It’s a good way to give yourself a headache.
Thank you for your apology, which naturally is accepted.
[quote=“Charlie, post:37, topic:3325”]
Who you gonna believe? A bunch of suttas with 4 factors or three or so with 5? and does it really matter?[/quote]
For me, personally, it does not really matter because my personal dhamma practise has never about jhanas but, instead, non-attachment. If jhana results from non-attachment then that jhana is another sense experience to practise non-attachment towards.
Please listen to the talk by Bhante Sujato I linked to in this post:
At about 27:30 he starts to describe the most important aspects of ekkagata - one-pointedness of conciousness (there is only mind conciousness), one-pointedness in time (there is no change so no past, present or future) and all the jhana factors are integrated and working in unison.
