There are suttas where the Buddha says that he knows the rebirth of someone because devās told him so, and others I believe where even past Buddhas are mentioned as coming from devas. At e.g. AN 8.22, Ugga says that devas tell him about the who’s-who of the Sangha for instance as well. At AN 8.64, the Buddha talks of how he realized some memories of past lives and principles of kamma by talking to deities.
Even in DN 14 the mendicants ask how the Buddha knows and he says:
“It is because the Realized One has clearly comprehended the principle of the teachings that he can recollect all these things. And the deities also told me.
Maybe he didn’t specifically recall about past lives where he did meet a previous buddha.
Anyway, let’s just try that for this life, an old person trying to recall that they took physics class in university. But then does that mean all the physics knowledge immediately comes back? Not necessarily. Need to recall the knowledge one by one or derive from basic principles again if that whole life they didn’t use the knowledge after graduation.
This is the interpretation that does preserve all aspects of the sutta.
Just stumbled across this sutta SN 1.50. Ghatikāra from the same sutta appears to the Buddha and tells him that they used to be friends in a previous lifetime under the Buddha Kassapa. Interesting that we find a simplified verse form in the SN. I wonder which is earlier.
I get it now, so you think the Buddha found out the Dhamma by himself in this lifetime, but may have had contact in past lives. Doesn’t the phrase “things unheard before” also include past lives? I may be wrong, but I always thought it did include that. Besides, I remember reading somewhere that there are a few things that one can take to the next rebirth, one of them being Dhamma knowledge; however, I neither know what passage it is nor do I know what Dhamma knowledge refers to in that sutta, but if I find it out, it may help our discussion.
Clearly this doesn’t include the period of past fully enlightened Buddhas.
Fully enlightened Buddhas had arisen in the past and preached the Dhamma before certainly. But by the time of our Buddha, the dhammas of previous Buddhas were all gone from the world. Thus the saying of things unheard of before makes sense to be uttered by the Buddha to refer to his Dhamma period.
Not everything passes on from previous lives, or else we all can remember it and become child prodigy in this life. I suspect knowledge also have some decay function, where the child prodigy maybe good at a subject because those knowledges were built on only relatively recently in their past lives. Not like in a previous universe cycle or longer ago, or maybe it’s that long ago, who knows?
Given infinite past lives, we must had learnt all sorts of thing our many past lives, why aren’t we all super knowledgeable when we were reborn? (Rhetorical question) It’s because the default state is that we forget them all.
The Buddha similarly may have learnt the Dhamma previously, but for this life, he rediscovered it by himself, not remembered it via past life recall.
Wouldn’t that mean that the Buddha didn’t examine the teachings well enough?
"You can expect these four benefits when the teachings have been followed by ear, reinforced by recitation, examined by the mind, and well comprehended theoretically.”
AN 4.191
I was referring to Dhamma knowledge, not worldly knowledge.
Btw, the sutta I quoted talks about how these teachings can go from one life to the next, but that isn’t the sutta I mentioned earlier. I couldn’t find it.
As the dhamma before stream winning is more of a intellectual knowing level, it’s not surprising to not remember it. Like see dalai lama still have to relearn all the things in this life, even if he might learn faster. Maybe there could be insights, but fall short of stream entry insight.
And could be that the bodhisattva didn’t properly practise fully in his past lives, or he did, but the power of the bodhisatta predictions, vows made him stop short of stream entry, no matter how much he wants to go forward. Or he willingly stop short to be able to become a Buddha in the future.
One shouldn’t really expect the bodhisattva as perfected. Or that could be a part of the sacrifice life after life to choose not to become an arahant for the sake of Buddhahood. The perfection of determination.
In that order of gods, many thousands, many hundreds of thousands of deities approached me, bowed, stood to one side, and said to me, ‘Ninety-one eons ago, good sir, the Buddha Vipassī arose in the world, perfected and fully awakened. He was born as an aristocrat into an aristocrat family. Koṇḍañña was his clan. He lived for 80,000 years. He was awakened at the root of a trumpet flower tree. He had a fine pair of chief disciples named Khaṇḍa and Tissa. He had three gatherings of disciples—one of 6,800,000, one of 100,000, and one of 80,000—all of them mendicants who had ended their defilements. He had as chief attendant a mendicant named Asoka. His father was King Bandhuma, his birth mother was Queen Bandhumatī, and their capital city was named Bandhumatī. And such was his renunciation, such his going forth, such his striving, such his awakening, and such his rolling forth of the wheel of Dhamma. And good sir, after leading the spiritual life under that Buddha Vipassī we lost our desire for sensual pleasures and were reborn here.’
And other deities came and similarly recounted the details of the Buddhas Sikhī, Vessabhū, Kakusandha, Koṇāgamana, and Kassapa.
DN 14
The sutta indicates that the Buddha didn’t recollect the previous Buddhas. Instead, deities told him about them. If he had practiced under the Buddha Kassapa, wouldn’t he have recollected that?
“It’s incredible, reverends, it’s amazing, the power and might of a Realized One! For he is able to recollect the caste, names, clans, life-span, chief disciples, and gatherings of disciples of the Buddhas of the past who have become completely extinguished, cut off proliferation, cut off the track, finished off the cycle, and transcended suffering. He knows the caste they were born in, and also their names, clans, conduct, qualities, wisdom, meditation, and freedom.
Is it because the Realized One has clearly comprehended the principle of the teachings that he can recollect all these things? Or did deities tell him?” But this conversation among those mendicants was left unfinished.
Then in the late afternoon, the Buddha came out of retreat and went to the pavilion by the kari tree, where he sat on the seat spread out and addressed the mendicants, “Mendicants, what were you sitting talking about just now? What conversation was left unfinished?”
The mendicants told him what had happened, adding, “This was our conversation that was unfinished when the Buddha arrived.”
“It is because the Realized One has clearly comprehended the principle of the teachings that he can recollect all these things. And the deities also told me.
The Buddha said to be contented, but also don’t be contented with respect to wholesome states.
Which one is right? Both are right. Just know the context. To get deeper into wholesome states, the method language is contentment. The goal language wise, don’t stop until arahanthood. So don’t be contented with respect to wholesome states.
It’s actually apparent paradoxes like above which needs more time and insight to tease out to see that there’s no contradiction.
For the DN14 example, there’s clearly no contradiction.
Just because the Buddha did recall past lives and previous Buddhas, doesn’t mean that devas cannot tell him also. And in the parts you quoted, the Buddha also had the devas telling him. Maybe that prompted the Buddha to recall on his own.
There is something to be said for the “game” of trying to find which sutta contradict each other then trying to say which one is late. Please do try to see if there’s a way to make it consistent first. Or else it’s like using too much secular Buddhism thinking. That’s the value of commentaries, abhidhamma, traditional dhamma talks, the whole Theravada tradition etc.
When your mind is pure, clean, rid of impurities, no asavas, no hindrances.
One can direct the mind into whatever they want to know. They will know.
Then, how can one verify it is true? Not some silly thoughts that occured or hallucination?
When one also developed psychic power, they can go to any places they want to VERIFY the knowledge.
Also, Sometime the deva/god come to visit and tell you. Very rarely.
This is what it is called as ehipassiko. It can be verified again and again. The knowledge can be verified not only 1 way, but many different ways. It is akaliko as well.
Isn’t it possible that the Buddha developed the ability see past lives in the night of his enlightenment? He would have re-discovered the path in the preceding years before that so would have no recollection of his previous contact with the Buddhas.
Imho the Buddha knew the previous Buddhas with the use of the superconscious psychic power attained by samatha-vipassana jhanas, especially 9th jhana (nirodha samapatti and cessation of perception and feeling) - same way he knew and mapped the 31 Planes of Consciousness and Existence.
I also feel the Buddha had to be a sakadagami (once returner) or at least a stream-enterer to fall into jhana as a young boy, finding Yashodhara, leave his two teachers and later self-awaken.
