SuttaCentral

How do I notice mental vedana?


#41

This probably doesn’t answer your question, but in terms of practice, the Satipatthana Sutta only mentions a distinction between carnal and spiritual feelings (and the 3 tones within each). So to be practicing satipatthana at least, it isn’t necessary to notice mental vedana.

Phenomenologically, feelings are dependent on the body. A dead corpse doesn’t have feelings… There is obviously some co-relation though between body and mind, positive and negative feelings find expression through the body and vice versa.

To try to answer the question: vedana are said to arise based on contact, per paticcasamupada, the counterpart to the mind sense is thoughts, so whatever feelings arise based on thoughts would be mental vedana?


#42

I don’t understand how delight could be without emotional tone.

Cannot a sankhara have pleasant/unpleasant/neutral tone associated with it, at least sometimes?


#43

If we slow it down and see delight as yet another object of subsequent consciousness (or an object of the subsequent mind sense) then it’s possible for it to give rise to vedana. Our reality is polaroid snap shots or sampling of reality.

I think it’s the same vedana that was initiated by vedana, which lingers into sankhara!


#44

Viññāṇa-ṭṭhitiyo [viññāṇa/conciousness + ṭṭhitiyo/ sustainability ] based on:
Body / material [rupayam] as an object, orVedanā [vedanupayam], or
Saññā [sannupayam], or
Saṅkhāra [sankharupayam] [DN.33/Sanghiti Sutta]

With the ear [sota] and the sounds of [sadde] as conditions, there arises ear awareness [sotaviññāṇa] …
With the nose [ghāna] and the smells of [gandhe] as conditions, then there arises nose consciousness [ghānaviññāṇa] …
With the tongue [jivha] and taste [rase] as conditions, then arises the tongue consciousness [jivhaviññāṇa] …
With the body / body [kaya] and touches [phoṭṭhabbe] as conditions, then arises body / physical awareness [kayaviññāṇa] …
With the mind and mind objects as conditions, then arises mind consciousness [manoviññāṇa] … [MN 18 / Madhupiṇḍikasutta]

The meeting of these three [tiṇṇaṃ saṅgati] is [phasa] contact. (MN 18)
Or
The meeting, coming together, and joining together of these three things is called contact (SN34.93)

With contact as a condition, the sensation [vedana] arises. (MN.18)

What is felt , it is recognized [ sañjānāti].(MN18)

Contacted, one feels, intends, and perceives.
Phuṭṭho, bhikkhave, vedeti, phuṭṭho ceteti, phuṭṭho sañjānāti.(SN34.93)

Mendicants, consciousness exists dependent on a duality.
“Dvayaṃ, bhikkhave, paṭicca viññāṇaṃ sambhoti.

And what is that duality?
Kathañca, bhikkhave, dvayaṃ paṭicca viññāṇaṃ sambhoti?

Eye consciousness arises dependent on the eye and sights.
Cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjati cakkhuviññāṇaṃ.

The eye is impermanent, perishing, and changing.

Sights are impermanent, perishing, and changing

So this duality is tottering and toppling; it’s impermanent, perishing, and changing.

So these things are tottering and toppling; they’re impermanent, perishing, and changing.
Itthetepi dhammā calā ceva byathā caaniccā vipariṇāmino aññathābhāvino.

This is how consciousness exists dependent on a duality.
”Evaṃ kho, bhikkhave, dvayaṃ paṭiccaviññāṇaṃ sambhotī”ti (SN34.93)

five faculties. (SN48.36)
The faculties of pleasure, pain, happiness, sadness, and equanimity

And what is the faculty of pleasure?Katamañca, bhikkhave, sukhindriyaṃ?Physical enjoyment, physical pleasure, the enjoyable, pleasant feeling that’s born from physical contact.
Yaṃ kho, bhikkhave, kāyikaṃ sukhaṃ,kāyikaṃ sātaṃ, kāyasamphassajaṃ sukhaṃsātaṃ vedayitaṃ—


( see also SN48.38)
Suppose there were none of the features, attributes, signs, and details by which the category of mental phenomena is found. Would linguistic contact still be found in the category of physical phenomena?” “No, sir.”
And so on DN15

I try to summarize…i hope this would be useful


#45

Sure, vedana arises with sankhara, but it seems to be an initial reaction to the perception of the sankhara, rather than an “emotional tone” which persists alongside the sankhara. As I read the suttas, sankharas and rupa are the only aggregates which can be thought of as persisting over time.
I say this because in the Suttas vedana, sanna and vinnana are conjoined, which indicates that they arise together as an initial experience of something, or contact with something.
The something here could of course be delight, which would presumably “trigger” a pleasant vedana when it is noticed. Like when I see ice-cream. :icecream::yum:


#46

I’m not so sure emotions are best categorized under sankhara. In Bhante @sujato ‘s translations he uses choices and to me, it’s more that a Sankhara is a choice to pursue the object of contact which is craved for or against.

I’m not sure that dependent origination is exactly linear.

Maybe Bhante can give us some deeper insight I to the word Sankhara. I know I am not 100% on my understanding of it.

With Metta


#47

Bhante uses “choices” to translate the sankharas nidana. Here I’m referring to the sankharas khandha, which appears to have a broader scope.
Basically I’m saying that mental vedana is the fleeting initial reaction to sankharas, rather than an emotion or mood which persists over time.


#49

I thinks the term or named as vedana in phassa paccaya vedana, vedana should be seen depending on the ablility of vinnana - to cognize and what contact arise from.

It is said that when contact occurred then vedana arise, here vedana means something recognizable by vinnana, that recognition arise from object and sense (sense = indriya = namarupam rise vinnana)

So at sense / bodyly contact, i define vedana as signs - form ( eye) / formless ( skin , nose, ear ), i prefer not to define vedana at 5 senses as dukkha sukkha adukhamasukkha dukkha = hard to bear sukkha = easy to bear adukkhamasukkha = niether that two -)

i think this three kind of feelings ( tisso vedana) should be seen in that signs which prone to fetter ( as a thought) and as object of mind which is contaminated by fetter, with mind and mind conciousness these three met (phassa / contact) vedana (three feeling ) arise …

Paticcasamuppada …
…vedana pacaya tanha, this vedana should be define as dukkha sukkha adukhamasukkha …and than we proliferate them.

Reff :

When a mendicant sees a sight with the eye, bad, unskillful phenomena arise: memories and thoughts prone to fetters.)


#50

An added complication is that a lot of vedana is neutral, and therefore difficult to notice.