How does one in jhana actually gain knowledge?

The Watercooler
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Friends,

I wonder whether it is possible for someone who abides in the realm of neither-perception nor non-perception to gain knowledge. I am really genuinely curious about this and rather confused by it.

Consider a meditator who practices thus:
“This” neither is nor is not.
“Life” neither is nor is not.
“I” neither am nor am not.
“Death” neither is nor is not.
“Me” neither is nor is not.
“Activity” neither is nor is not.
“Here and there” neither are nor are not.
And so on.

How does knowledge itself become gained in this state? Who gains it?

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Knowledge arises, knowledge ceases. The perception of gain of knowledge is a perception.

MN43

“Neyyaṁ panāvuso, dhammaṁ kena pajānātī”ti?
“How do you understand something that can be known?”

“Neyyaṁ kho, āvuso, dhammaṁ paññācakkhunā pajānātī”ti.
“You understand something that can be known with the eye of wisdom.”

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Like water is moving. Something generally higher than logic and emotion if you can find it.

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I would say that this doesn’t sound like jhana?

at least form second jhana, and according to the neo-Therevadans who dominate here even from the first, there should be no thoughts of “this is blah” rather there should just be awareness of joy and pleasure in the second jhana, awareness of pleasure in the third jhana, and awareness of neither pleasure nor pain in the fourth.

the awareness of neither pleasure nor pain in the fourth jhana is not some conceptual self talked “this is neither pleasure nor pain”, it’s the actual sensation/perception/whatever, of, with the fading away of the experience of pleasure, and with the previous fading away of happiness, of thinking, and of pain, a direct experience of the neither pleasure nor pain state.

this state is said to be “workable” and “directable” and can be “willed” (for example willed to create an astral body, willed to recall past lives, etc)

so you would gain knowlege form having that experience, just like you gain knowlege form staring a a drawing of a visual proof of pythagoras theorem, you can see, and know, that it is true.

And then recall it’s truth even afterwards when your not looking at the picture.

I don’t think there is a mystery here. And I think that the jhana warriors have obscured the very obvious pain (of worldly life) to not pain (pleasure, of seclusion) to neither pleasure nor pain (fourth jhana) by their insistence on redefining terms when it comes to their occurrence in the jhana sequence, even though the usual semantics of those terms fit perfectly, usually on the basis that “jhana is different because insert weird metaphysical reasoning here so we translate it differently.”

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Sorry, read your headline and didn’t realise you where talking about a different mediation practice.

This one is probably more amenable to the subvocal “thought” praxis of “this is X”.

I would just say that in the original sequence given at DN1, as the praxis of the nihilists, it starts with awareness of the body, and moves, presumably after each previous stage is completely mastered, up the chain from the physical to the sensual to the mental, to the spatial, to the non perceptual (nothingness).

The buddhists first append the neither perceptual nor non perceptual to the praxis, and then later append the cessation of perception and feeling.

In terms of the neither nor part, we can look at it as a buddhist attempt to indicate the trancendence of the limits of perception, i.e if ascending all the way to the direct perception of infinite consciousness allows one to find the summit of perception in the perception of nothingness, a perception one who practicing it could, presumably not be conscious of it, but, again, presumably, would be able to reflect on the experience afterwards, then the “perception” of neither perception nor non perception must presumably use the word “perception” in two different ways, and shade off into “understanding” or “knowledge” or something.

Honestly it’s all a bit pie in the sky IMO, and I would be suprised if anyone truly mastering the sphere of infinite space even would be asking or answering questions about praxis on the internet.

the fundamental technique at play here is mindfulness of the body.

If you feel like you are gaining knowlege through the praxis of mindfullness of the body then you are on the right track :slight_smile:

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I don’t think much knowledge is gained in this state. As a precursor to cessation of perception and feeling it seems to be a state where there’s just enough consciousness to “know” that perception is emanating from its source, but not enough consciousness to “know” what the informatic content of that perception is.

Kind of like listening to someone speak another language. You hear all the sounds, but as far as pauses between words and sentence go, you aren’t aware. And as far as meaning goes, your brain doesn’t make any connections.

That’s the tendency that consciousness has - it clings. So, hypothetically, as one is approaching cessation, consciousness is being let go of - it’s tending less and less to cling to the sense media. One is neither fully percipient nor fully non-percipient.

I imagine, It’s like an uncollapsed wave function in a sense. You haven’t measured it su that it takes on a definitive particulate form. But, if such a thing were possible, your awareness at least acknowledges that the wave function is there.

So, I’d wager that knowledge per se is not extremely relevant in this attainment. The attainment sheds light on the nature of sense media and consciousness - as far as I can tell anyway - it’s the edge of what is possible to feel and/or perceive before the full cessation of all perception and feeling.

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Realm is different from Jhāna gained in this life.

For one who can get the jhānas in this human life, coming out of Jhāna, the mind is temporarily free from the hindrances and very workable. So one should do vipassana meditation to reflect on impermanence, suffering and not self, and eventually get enlightenment.

That’s how knowledge is obtained after emerging from Jhānas.

To be reborn into those formless realms is not so ideal if one is not at least a stream winnner, so if one has the ability to meditate to that level, do very much focus a lot of effort on vipassana after each time emerging from Jhānas. I recommend Pa-Auk tradition for very step by step detailed teachings on these.

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Since there are necessarily going to be many irrelevant posts to this topic, I might as well add that I’ve been flirting with the idea that meditation just was the original Buddhist’s way of philosophical contemplation.

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This does not read as being jhana.

This does not read as being the sphere of neither-perception nor non-perception. “This”, “Life”, “I”, “Death”, “Me”, “Activity”, “Here and there” are thoughts founded upon perceptions.

The sphere of neither-perception nor non-perception is not a state for the gaining of knowledge. MN 111 does not describe any type of knowledge here.

Again, monks, by completely surpassing the extent of nothingness, Sāriputta attains and remains in the extent of neither perception nor non-perception. He mindfully emerges from that attainment. After mindfully emerging from that attainment, he regards those phenomena which have passed, ceased, and changed in this way: ‘It seems that these phenomena were not present, then they manifested; then after being present, they vanished again.’ In regard to those phenomena, he remains unattracted, unrepelled, independent, unattached, released, unbound, with an unrestricted mind. He understands, ‘There is an escape beyond this.’ Practicing that frequently, he knows that there is a further escape.

MN 111

“Who?” is always not a fitting question in Buddhism. SN 12.12.

In jhana, the mind gains knowledge of the nature of feelings & consciousness.

Take a mendicant who, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption. They contemplate (see) the phenomena there—included in form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness—as impermanent, as suffering, as diseased, as a boil, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien, as falling apart, as empty, as not-self.

AN 9.36

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One does not actually gain any knowledge in jhana.

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This is not jhana. This is insight meditation (i.e. ‘right view’).

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It reads as an insight occurring while in jhana.

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Jhana itself cannot occur insight (= ‘right view’).

Only the individual, while in jhana, knows (jānāti) and sees (passati) the phenomena (such as the five aggregates) as impermanent, as suffering, as empty, as not-self (i.e. ‘right view’ = insight).