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Then look for ‘SN ii 18’ down the centre column:
SN 12.16 Dhammakathika SN ii 18 SA 363–365
SN II 18 is on page 545
Look for ‘II’ in the top corner of the left hand page (page 544)
Then look for [18] in the text, which is at the very bottom of page 544
Therefore the relevant text starts on page 545 until [19] starts.
1. Association with people of integrity is a factor for stream-entry.
“And what is meant by admirable friendship? There is the case where a lay person, in whatever town or village he may dwell, spends time with householders or householders’ sons, young or old, who are advanced in virtue. He talks with them, engages them in discussions. He emulates consummate conviction in those who are consummate in conviction, consummate virtue in those who are consummate in virtue, consummate generosity in those who are consummate in generosity, and consummate discernment in those who are consummate in discernment. This is called admirable friendship.”
— AN 8.54
2. Listening to the true Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry.
Admirable friends kalyanamittas (the Buddha and his disciples or even attained lay people) teach the Dhamma. Stream entrants develop Right view in this way:
“Friend, there are two conditions for the arising of right view: the voice of another and appropriate attention [see below]. These are the two conditions for the arising of right view.”
3. Appropriate attention is a factor of stream entry
Contemplation of Aggregates (Khandha), elements (Dhatu), sense bases (Ayatana). Contemplation of these is required to become a ‘dhamma follower’ which is a stage prior to stream entry. They ‘know’ but haven’t ‘seen’ through insight meditation (unlike a stream entrant who both knows and sees, according to these suttas).
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/index.html#okkanta
The Dependant Origination can be contemplated and is part of the insight of a stream entrant:
The Four Noble Truths can be initially contemplated and later seen with insight, by a stream entrant:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn56/sn56.042.than.html
Arising of the Dhamma-eye (sotapatti Magga according to my understanding): suppression of the five hindrances, breaking of the three fetters, experiencing cessation (of all phenomena), can all come from listening and contemplation of the Dhamma.
Arising of the Noble Eightfold path (magga) can also happen from practicing Samatha and vipassana:
“There is the case where a monk has developed insight preceded by tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it—his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. yuganadda sutta AN 4.170
The Five Aggregates are the core basic dhammas the stream entrant gains insight into:
[At Saavatthii the Blessed One said:] "Monks, there are these five groups of clinging. What five? The body-group of clinging, the feeling-group, the perception-group, the mental-formation-group, the consciousness-group of clinging.
“And when, monks, the Ariyan disciple understands as they really are the arising and the passing away, the attractiveness and the danger, and the deliverance from the five groups of clinging, he is called an Ariyan disciple who is a Stream-winner, not liable to states of woe, assured of final enlightenment.” SN 22.109 Sotaapanno Sutta
The Eightfold Path is Noble because it comes into being after attaining Stream entry (sotapatti magga, according to my understanding). This path is then practiced to its fullest thereafter (to attain the fruit of stream entry -sotapatti phala, and beyond). The Noble Eightfold Path starts with established insight into the Four Noble Truths already in place:
SN 45.8 PTS: S v 2 CDB ii 1524
Magga-vibhanga Sutta: An Analysis of the Path
Stream entrants and above are called Noble (Ariya). An important point here is that a person is called a trainee (sekha) after attaining stream entry. They train further in the Noble Eightfold Path.
4. Practice in accordance with the Dhamma dhammanudhamma is a factor for stream-entry.
— SN 55.5
Anudhamma sutta:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.039.than.html
There are four Anudhamma suttas stating about 1) disenchantment 2) impermanence 3) unsatisfactoriness 4) not-Self, of the five aggregates.
With metta
Matheesha
We know that a stream entrant hasn’t fulfilled his training in unification of the mind (adhi-citta). That happens at the non-returner level.
We also know that Dhamma followers and faith followers have the faculty (indriya) of unification (Samadi) and they are of a lower degree of attainment than Stream entrants. This means the Stream entrant has some degree of Mental unification (without which developing insight not be possible). The stream entrant is said to ‘posses the path’ including Right concentration (Samma samadhi).
Beyond this the suttas as far as I am aware do not give further evidence on the issue.
Meditation instructors talk of access concentration being adequate to give rise to Insight. Ven Premasiri told me that the anantarika samadhi, ‘samadhi without interval’, the samadhi that arises at the time of attainment is 'beyond the 8th jhana '. So if the stream entrant hasn’t had a jhanic level of samadhi when practicing they should definitely end up with it when the Path opens up at the point of attainment.
I perfectly agree with your first message but about the second:
The suttas quoted by me in previous msg about this describe it as normal concentration that happens during contemplating a discourse. Like the concentration that a person has when contemplating an engineering book for example.
The stream entrant is said to ‘posses the path’ including Right concentration (Samma samadhi).
“What is the stream ? The steam is the noble 8thfold path” - a stream enterer is one who has entered the stream and has found this noble 8thfold path. Before, he might have had wrong view, wrong effort, wrong mindfulness, etc. witch is not the noble 8thfold path. But now, he has right view and will therefore have right effort, right livelihood, right mindfulness etc. This is why a steam enterer is said to posses the path while others do not. He has just entered the stream (8thfold path) not finished it. He is one “acomplished in view.”
Meditation instructors talk of access concentration being adequate to give rise to Insight. Ven Premasiri told me that the anantarika samadhi, ‘samadhi without interval’, the samadhi that arises at the time of attainment is 'beyond the 8th jhana '.
These “access concentation” or “samadhi without interval” or other meditation terms come from contemporary teachers, usually Mahasi to make a case for stream entry been achieved using the mahasi technique. Witch is not what we see in the suttas. As a matter of fact, we do not see the mahasi technique anywhere in the suttas at all.
So if the stream entrant hasn’t had a jhanic level of samadhi when practicing they should definitely end up with it when the Path opens up at the point of attainment.
A steam enterer has just entered the stream (the noble 8thfold path), not completed it. There is a difference between entering the path and completing the path.
If one is able to achieve jhana, he will become a non-returner. Witch is a huge difference compared to a steam enterer who is simply a normal person in terms of renunciacion who has contemplated higher teachings of the buddha long enough to have “a breakthrough of wisdom”. There was a stream enterer in the suttas who wanted to quit monkhood for a girl.
Suttas such as MN 39, MN 107 and MN 125 show how difficult Jhana is to achieve. This is why B.Bodhi has not attained any jhana yet. If one is able to have jhana and already poses the insight Buddha gave to the world, he will achieve non-returning. (zero sensual desire, zero aversion) This is also why normal people in the suttas only achieved stream entry when contemplating discourses about higher teachings while ascetics usually attained non-returning or arahantship. To achieve jhana, one really needs to be a serious ascetic, a real renunciate.
Hi dxm_dxm,
Reading an engineering book is concentrating on an external object. Having read medical texts for many hours I can guarantee that it wont lead to Samadhi, while meditation would. The concentration that happens while contemplating a discourse occurs in the mind. The teachings leans the mind towards nibbana - the person that realizes truth is propelled into nibbana. To split the ‘horse hair’ it takes great Samadhi. In that thunderstrike moment the remaining citta is pure and filled with bliss for a long time. The time remaining in samsara is running out like air escaping from a tire puncture, from that point onwards.
If there all the right ingredients are in the mind, like an explosive mix, it takes only a realization of the truth to set it off. This is beyond a person’s conscious control and cannot be claimed as me or mine- it is only causes and effects at play.
“…iminā ariyena aṭṭhaṅgikena maggena samannāgato ayaṃ vuccati sotāpanno,…” SN 55.5
The crucial term her is samannāgato. This is translated as ‘endowed with’, so that it reads ‘the stream entrant is endowed with the N8FP.
We know that the stream entrant has right view, he has very good sila, he has the faculties of viriya and sati and samadhi (with temporarily abandoned hindrances). The stream entrant is then endowed with the entire path, but obviously not developed each factor to the degree of an arahanth.
We hear that the first jhana samadhi is enough to become an arahanth (MN?). It stands to reason that lesser degrees of samadhi is enough for stream entry, though having jhana would make it that much more easier IMO. Kayasakki is said to be an attained being who can experience jhana. Meditation masters say that Nibbana can be re-experienced in a prolonged way in Fruit of stream entry (Sotapatti phala ) by those with jhana -to ‘plunge’ into nibbana and not just a glimpse in the night. Some would go as far as to say that attaining stream entry very hard without jhana and that they have not seen anyone who became a stream entrant without having a jhanic level of Samadhi. This I think is down to the fact that purity of Samadhi and the ability to reach into a jhana doesn’t correspond 1:1. Of the two, the purity of Samadhi is much more important. Therefore even being able to attain jhana might mean they only really have enough Samadhi corresponding to having abandoned the hindrances (see Ven Moggallanas difficulties with noise and other issues), if that makes sense. Therefore some meditation teachers will have getting into jhana as benchmark for the yogi having attained adequate Samadhi, though not strictly prescribed in the suttas, as it is a Samadhi ‘landmark’ usable for determing progress.
I like to visualize this in terms of a dried up river with 8 pools of water along the way. The practitioner’s task is to fill up these pools, so that they overflow and merge into each other, forming a river. Then with the final push from Right view, at the moment of realization, the river starts to flow. This is how a growth in panna gives rise to a sudden growth in Samadhi athe point of realization. We know from the suttas that nibbana can be explained as a development past the successive jhanas. At the point of realization the samadhi must go past the jhanas to get into nibbana (of sotapatti magga). So while immediately prior to stream entry the level of Samadhi would be at the level of abandoned hindrances, to achieve stream entry (and nibbana) one must go past the jhanic levels of Samadhi which means that the newly attained stream entrant has all the steps of the N8FP. This is how I understand this phenomenon (note: this simile is limited in that there was no past river that dried up- it an altogether new river!).
with metta,
Mat
Ya.m buddhase.t.tho pariva.n.nayii suci.m
Samaadhimaanantarika~n~namaahu
Samaadhinaa tenaa samo na vijjati
That pure concentration which the Supremely Awakened One extolled and which they call “Immediacy” — a concentration comparable to that there does not exist.
— Sn v.226 (Ratana Sutta)
by
Bhikkhu Ñanananda
(7) ‘Which one thing is hard to penetrate? Uninterrupted mental concentration 1137 (ānantariko ceto-samādhi).
http://www.palicanon.org/149-dn-16-mahparinibbna-sutta-the-great-passing-the-
I think it is wise to assume that we cannot hope to know everything that the Buddha meant, from a 2600 year old text, subjected to redaction. Short of knowing the minds of practitioners we cannot know if a certain meditative practice leads to nibbana or not. The best way to discuss dhamma is to use ‘in my opinion’ (IMO) and ‘according to my understanding’ liberally. The Buddha said this safe guards the truth when expressing personal truths (pacceka sacca) which may not be a truth for someone else.
As for the Mahasi tradition my personal opinion is that it is helpful once sotapatti-magga has been reached, to get into to sotapatti-phala, as stages of revulsion(nibbada), dispassion (viraga) and cessation (nirodha) must be passed to get into phala(samawatha). The mindfulness of the sense bases will link in with the dhammas which lead the way to nibbana earlier. Needless to say being a dry-vipassana method, it would help to have jhana, metta, and Buddhanussati to go hand in hand with it. Tempering the effort (Viriya-samatha) is important too. The fourth tetrad from the anpanasati sutta is helpful as well.
But these Mahasi meditation masters have not read the suttas. How can one be a BUDDHIST meditation master without reading the suttas ? He can only be a Zen meditation master without reading the suttas, not a Theravada meditation master.
This common misconception of stream enterers “experiencing nibbana” that is popular in Mahasi is contradicted by SN 12.68 witch deals exactly with this problem. The sutta explains a stream enterer only has intelectual knowledge of nibbana but can not experience it.
This I think is down to the fact that purity of Samadhi and the ability to reach into a jhana doesn’t correspond 1:1. Of the two, the purity of Samadhi is much more important. Therefore even being able to attain jhana might mean they only really have enough Samadhi corresponding to having abandoned the hindrances (see Ven Moggallanas difficulties with noise and other issues), if that makes sense.
Yes that is correct but this neads some clarification. The confusion about steam entry needing jhana is based on samadhi is the context of 5 faculties been different than samadhi in the context of the noble 8thfold path (jhana). There are suttas explaining how the 5 hidrances are not present when one is conteplating a sutta. And it is only normal to be so. When you are contemplating a psichology text for example, is any ill will or lazines or sensual desire present when you are 100% focused on understanding something complicated ?
There are probably 10 suttas explaining this in SN alone, 2 of them I’ve quoted in my first post.
I like to visualize this in terms of a dried up river with 8 pools of water along the way. The practitioner’s task is to fill up these pools, so that they overflow and merge into each other, forming a river. Then with the final push from Right view, at the moment of realization, the river starts to flow.
But that is not how suttas describe it. There are many suttas explaining each 8thfold path step springs from the previous one. You can not have good jhana but bad mindfulness. Or wrong view but have right mindfulness. Buddha said this is impossible.
Also, when we speak about jhana we need to diferentiate between “banana jhana” and “sutta jhana”. Jhana from the suttas is imposible to achieve without been a real renunciate monk. MN 39, MN 107, MN 125 make that clear. Sutta also say Jhana is linked with non-returning. So one who does achieve jhana will have ZERO sensual desire and ZERO aversion from that point on. This is why B.Bodhi has admited he has not achieved jhana yet. Sutta-type of jhana are not some form of “banana jhana” or “vipasana jhana” that have been invented in the 19th century. The jhana the historical Buddha spoke about is something different. Something that takes real renunciacion.
I think it is wise to assume that we cannot hope to know everything that the Buddha meant, from a 2600 year old text, subjected to redaction.
Yes, it is better to rely on contemporary bhikkhus rather than on the historical Buddha. Surely they must know more about the buddhist path than the historical Buddha.
You might be surprised by how much scholary research is able to do in terms of finding out witch suttas are authentic and witch are not. To my knowledge, something like 25-30% of DN is a latter addition and about 12 suttas out of 152 from MN are latter additions. Other than that nothing too important. And the higher teachings found in SN have been the best preserved of them all due to their importance. If you claim suttas have no value because they are too old, then you need to back up your claim. You can’t just claim something without proving it. You need to back it up with some research confirming your views. There is B.Sujato book “The Authenticity of early buddhist texts” where he does a good job demolishing the postmodernist claims that “we can never know how authentic they are” He too complains about postmodernism been responsible for keeping early buddhist text research back a generation with their anti-science mentality of “we can never know anything for sure”
People used to claim there is no way to really know for sure if smoking is bad. That there is never enough evidence. Similary, there are still people claiming global warming can never be proven for sure. Or creationist that will always say we can never know for sure about the theory of evolution cause there are some missing links and there is just not enough evidence for it. It’s easy to say “we can never know for sure” when you do not agree with something.
Short of knowing the minds of practitioners we cannot know if a certain meditative practice leads to nibbana or not.
According to Buddha, the 16 step apanasanti meditation is the one that should be used, not the hindu meditation that he practiced before enlightenment. If some think that modern 19th century meditation inventions are better than the 16step apanasanti recomanded by the historical Buddha, then it’s their time and effort they are risking by investing it in such techniques.
The best way to discuss dhamma is to use ‘in my opinion’ (IMO) and ‘according to my understanding’ liberally. The Buddha said this safe guards the truth when expressing personal truths (pacceka sacca) which may not be a truth for someone else.
According to Buddha, there is right view and there is wrong view. Wrong view is not the same as right view. The suttas were very careful to cover every misunderstanding that might appear, that’s why they have 10.000pag. Buddha was not a postmodernist believing that the truths is relative and there is no right view and no wrong view. According to Buddha, if one has wrong view his whole practice will be wrong practice.
At Savatthı. “Bhikkhus, whether for a layperson or one gone
forth, I do not praise the wrong way. Whether it is a layperson or
one gone forth who is practising wrongly, because of undertaking
the wrong way of practice he does not attain the method,
the Dhamma that is wholesome. And what, bhikkhus, is the
wrong way? It is: wrong view … wrong concentration. This is
called the wrong way. Whether it is a layperson or one gone forth
who is practising wrongly, because of undertaking the wrong
way of practice he does not attain the method, the Dhamma that
is wholesome.
Theravada is not Zen
dxm_dxm
I was just listening to a talk on narcissism by Bhanthe Sujato.
Metta
dxm_dxm
I was just listening to a talk on narcissism by Bhanthe Sujato.
Metta
A good thing to do. Narcissism is by far the most prelevalent problem in people inclined towards religion. It produces huge levels of delusion and is also the one responsible for clinging to views.
And I am no exception. In the past, I had huge problems with narcissism myself until finding out about Sam Vaknin and watching his videos about 4 years ago. Most of what he says is wrong, just freudian type of narratives and created me some wrong views. But nevertheless, at least I got aware about narcissism and accepted that I have a big problem with that 4 years ago so I was able to treat it.
I consider the knowledge I have got to have about narcissism after understanding buddhism to be much better than modern phychology. I goes something like this:
By constantly giving attention to thoughts that make one feel good about oneself (such as “I am rich” or “I am advanced” or “I am such a nice person” etc.), by constantly taking delight in such thoughts a person develops a tendency towards this. Then, since he is addicted to this kind of pleasure, since he has this tendency (we all have it, some more some less) - the person will develop all kind of narratives and delusions about himself so that thoughts that produce bigger pleasures can appear and he can take even more delight. And then these narratives become solid as granite.
Also, when there is clinging to something there develops wrong views to legitimize the clinging. An alcoholic will develop the wrong view of “I do not have a problem with alcohol” or “This problem does not affect me” or “I can not quit it because there is something about me that makes me impossible to quit it” - these are all wrong views developed because of clinging. If there would be no clinging present, the person would have normal views about alcohol like any normal person.
I consider many of Sam Vaknin ideas to be such wrong views. Ideas like “narcissism is uncurable” when it’s actually easy to cure just like any other addiction. I know he has changed this opinion after recent research in the field. There is also the problem with modern physchology basing their ideas on the existence of a self, having this starting point. Nevertheless, many of his analysis (in general those about how narcissism kind of thinking goes) are very insightful.
In people inclined towards religion this is the biggest blind spot of them all. And it’s also one of the hardest to deal with. Destruction of these narratives built about oneself is extemely painful and few have the power to do it. But first step is awareness. Mara only disappears if it is seen. I consider the fact that I’ve found out about this problem from Sam Vaknin to be the most important thing that happened in my buddhist path, been the thing that made me able to change my views 2 times since been a buddhist. Most people never change their views. They stay with the same ones they had when entering buddhism. Changing ones views is equal to “I have been stupid for so much time” and the more narcissist the person, the more difficult it is. No matter how strongly refuted, the person can not change the views. What the person needs to do is focus on the good side, on the benefits that gaining better views will have not on the idea that “I have been stupid for so much time.” The person needs to be pragmatic and think about the benefits. I have lost a lot of money in my life and a lot of years on the buddhist path because of narcissism.
In my opinion, awareness about narcissism is the most important thing that can happen to a person on the buddhist path. But unfortunately this is not stressed at all, nobody even mentions it. And this awareness has to be about oneself narcissism, not about “everybody else having this problem but not me”.
People with narcissistic personality disorder are characterized by their persistent grandiosity, excessive need for admiration, and a disdain and lack of empathy for others.[8][9] These individuals often display arrogance, a sense of superiority, and power-seeking behaviors.[10] Narcissistic personality disorder - Wikipedia
I wondered if the term for stinginess macchariya included narcissism as the results of having it were rather terrible and straightforward stinginess couldn’t seem to amount to that big an issue:
AN 5.257-263: MACCHARIYA SUTTAS — STINGINESS (4)
"Without abandoning these five qualities [5 variations of Stinginess], one is incapable of entering & remaining in the second jhana… the third jhana … the fourth jhana; incapable of realizing the fruit of stream-entry… the fruit of once-returning… the fruit of non-returning… arahantship.
Lack of empathy for others would be very debilitating as it would mean generosity, sila and compassion (karuna) would be hard to develop. These would be at the foundations of the path.
And not to mention the problem it brings in terms of clinging to views. Buddha said the thing keeping one from attaining stream entry is clinging to views. He will resort to what Sam Vaknin calls “primitive defense mechanisms”. No matter how strongly refuted, the person will not change his views. He will focus on the person making the argument, not on the argument itself. He will start looking for character flaws in the person in order to disprove his points made in his argumentation. This is a hallmark of narcissism.
Clinging to views is strictly dependent upon narcissism.
Clinging to views would certainly be a problem.
The path is also a bit ‘DIY’- so it might not be an issue if a narcissist can change his own mind after analysing the Dhamma, no?
I think the other big problem would be spending time on things that bolster the ego, at the expense of say Dhamma study or meditation.
I’ve sent u PM with more details since you’re working in the field and the information might help.
I would also like to post this link regarding stream entry. It’s a list of understandings relating to stream entry: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/index.html#okkanta
There is also a sutta with a monk asking other monks what does one need to understand in order to become a stream enterer, or when is one a steam enterer (I can’t remember exactly but it’s something like that) And all give different answers. And then he goes to Buddha and the Buddha explains to him how one might have understood the dhamma by means of sense bases, another by means of aggregaes, etc.
But in my opinion, this should not be taken as meaning one can attain stream entry by understanding only a part of the higher teachings alone. In the story about the 5 ascetic friends of the Buddha, the Buddha first explained DO and conditionality. Then he explained things in terms of the 5 aggregates. Then in terms of sense bases and then gave the powerful discourses about no-self.
If we look at how SN is structured, it is in the exact same way. It first starts with DO and conditionality explained in chapter 2 (book of causation) then it continues with chapter 3 (book of aggregates) witch clarify things much better than chapter 2. Then, in chapter 4 (book of sense bases) we have probably the most powerful discourses of all in the first samayuta of the chapter. We have discourses about the sense bases and the very powerful and difficult ones about no-self. Then, after this first samayuta there are not too much higher teachings left. The rest of the chapter contains teachings about renunciacion. And the last chapter, chapter 5 is about practice.
Here is a sutta where Buddha is asked if a stream enterer can live hedlesly, and he says yes:
“Nandiya, the person in whom the factors of stream entry are altogether & in every way lacking I call an outsider, one who stands in the faction of the run-of-the-mill. But as to how a disciple of the noble ones lives heedlessly and heedfully, listen well and pay attention, I will speak”
“As you say, lord,” Nandiya the Sakyan responded.
The Blessed One said, "And how, Nandiya, does a disciple of the noble ones live heedlessly? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones is endowed with verified confidence in the Awakened One: ‘Indeed, the Blessed One is worthy and rightly self-awakened, consummate in knowledge & conduct, well-gone, an expert with regard to the world, unexcelled as a trainer for those people fit to be tamed, the Teacher of divine & human beings, awakened, blessed.’ Content with that verified confidence in the Awakened One, he does not exert himself further in solitude by day or seclusion by night. For him, living thus heedlessly, there is no joy. There being no joy, there is no rapture. There being no rapture, there is no serenity. There being no serenity, he dwells in pain. When pained, the mind does not become centered. When the mind is uncentered, phenomena do not become manifest. When phenomena are not manifest, he is reckoned simply as one who dwells heedlessly.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn55/sn55.040.than.html
Further down the sutta, we also see the “unbroken, unspoted” witch is often interpreted to mean a stream enterer is close to an arahant or maybe even higher, we have this:
"Furthermore, the disciple of the noble ones is endowed with virtues that are appealing to the noble ones: untorn, unbroken, unspotted, unsplattered, liberating, praised by the wise, untarnished, leading to concentration. Content with those virtues pleasing to the noble ones, he does not exert himself further in solitude by day or seclusion by night. For him, living thus heedlessly, there is no joy. There being no joy, there is no rapture. There being no rapture, there is no serenity. There being no serenity, he dwells in pain. When pained, the mind does not become centered. When the mind is uncentered, phenomena do not become manifest. When phenomena are not manifest, he is reckoned simply as one who dwells heedlessly
Any more questions about a stream enterer posesing jhana ? Jhana that takes probably decades to develop and also in general requires one to be a monk if we look at MN 39, MN 107 or MN 125 ? Jhana that B.Bodhi has not achieved ? Jhana that is linked with non-returning ? Could such a person possessing jhana live heedlessly like that ?
I have some more compelling evidence about steam entry not possesing jhana: AN 3.94 - it explains how first comes stream entry and then, only after that - jhana and only after jhana - non-returning or arahantship. Directly in this sequence.
Also, we see in the suttas that non-returners are reborn in rupa-loka realms while stream enterers and once-returners are reborn in sensual realms. And we have not a single case where low-level ariyas were reborn in form-realms or higher than that, which tells a lot.
