How is the exterior suffering?

The eye is from and gives rise to form, and in nibbida it might feel like this.

A virtuous monk should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. For it is possible that a virtuous monk, attending in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant… not-self, would realize the fruit of stream-entry." SN22.122.

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"Insofar as it disintegrates, monk, it is called the ‘world.’ Now what disintegrates? The eye disintegrates. Forms disintegrate. Consciousness at the eye disintegrates. Contact at the eye disintegrates. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the eye — experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain — that too disintegrates.

"The ear disintegrates. Sounds disintegrate…
"The nose disintegrates. Aromas disintegrate…
"The tongue disintegrates. Tastes disintegrate…
"The body disintegrates. Tactile sensations disintegrate…

"The intellect disintegrates. Ideas disintegrate. Consciousness at the intellect consciousness disintegrates. Contact at the intellect disintegrates. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the intellect — experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain — that too disintegrates.

“Insofar as it disintegrates, it is called the ‘world.’” sn35.82 Loka Sutta: The World

The Blessed One said: "And what is the origination of the world? Dependent on the eye & forms there arises eye-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. This is the origination of the world. sn12.44 Loka Sutta: The World

That in the world by which one is a perceiver of the world, a conceiver of the world—this is called the world in the Noble One’s Discipline. And what, friends, is that in the world by which one is a perceiver of the world, a conceiver of the world? The eye is that in the world by which one is a perceiver of the world, a conceiver of the world . The ear … The nose … The tongue … The body … The mind is that in the world by which one is a perceiver of the world, a conceiver of the world. That in the world by which one is a perceiver of the world, a conceiver of the world—this is called the world in the Noble One’s Discipline. sn35.116 SuttaCentral

  • In the world there are Internal phenomena which when grasped with wrong view are taken to be self, are self-referable and personal for this or that person.

  • In the world there are External phenomena which when grasped with wrong view are taken to be self, are self-referable and personal for another person.

  • A person consists of 6 elements, four primary elements + space element and consciousness element.

  • In the world Consciousness element does not come into play everywhere, does not arise anywhere, it arises only due to certain causes and conditions. It arises ie in mother’s womb for this or that being.

So as i think about it in the world there are phenomena which do not have consciousness, these consist only of the four great elements and space (perhaps it is appropriate here to add derivatives but afaik this is incorrect because the derivatives of great elements are supports for consciousness);

The point is that whether internal or external, Form [Four Great Elements] and Space are impermanent, impermanence is associated with change, change is associated with stress, therefore nothing in the world is to be regarded as pleasant.

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I undestand the four great elements to be abstractions, based on the derived form (sense-objects) that we actually experience.

We cannot say how well these abstractions reflect ‘objects’ in the ‘real’ world; as we can only sense the abstraction and not the real world. ‘It arises’ and therefore the it cannot be said that the world doesn’t exist, as in SN12.15 Kaccayanagotta sutta. It vanishes, in nibbana (or cessation, nirodha), so the abstraction that we sense as the world, cannot be said to be the reality either.

And yet in MN1 the Tathagata knows the elements directly, so presumably not as abstractions. "He directly knows earth as earth… "

Here he knows the bare stimuli, with no ‘conventional reality’ of selves added. He knows the abstraction as an abstraction and not an ontological truth

There are three types of Dukkha.
Dukkha Dukkha, Viparinama Dukkha and Samsara Dukkha.
In my opinion all three above meanings are not conveyed by translating the word Dukkha as “suffering”

There seem to be different interpretations of those three types of dukkha.
And is the OP “exterior” dukkha different to these three, or the same?
Too many dukkhas! :laughing:

Or is it Sankāra Dukkah? as in the Encyclopedia of Buddhism? Or as glossed similarly here, are

The Types of Suffering

The first of these types of suffering is called Dukkha-dukkha . Suffering-suffering. The obvious suffering in situations where things cause you physical or mental pain.

The second kind of suffering is called Viparinama-dukkha . Suffering due to transformation or change. This means that even the most pleasurable things can cause you suffering when they begin to change and pass away.

The third kind of suffering is Sankhara-dukkha . Suffering due to conditioned states. This category of dukkha is associated with pleasurable things that can cause pain even in the midst of the pleasure, if that pleasure is based in an illusion about the nature of the object, or even about the nature of the self.

@Martin each of these three can be observed internally (one’s own suffering) or externally (the suffering of others). So your sum might be 2 x 3 = 6. :smiley:

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The OP sutta appears to say that sense objects “out there” are inherently dukkha. But if that’s the case, then how is the cessation of dukkha possible?

The goal isn’t to continue in a perfected state for ever and ever. Sickness, old age and death. I wouldn’t want to be a 500 year old arahanth!

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But again, if sickness, old age and death are viewed as inherently dukkha, then cessation of dukkha would not be possible.

Is dukkha a purely mental thing, or is it an inherent aspect of existence, as suggested by its inclusion in the three marks teaching? Are these actually different meanings of dukkha?

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I have held that dukkha doesn’t all end at once. The ending of samsara is a valid goal, thereby stopping disease, old age etc.

So in your view the Arahant is still subject to dukkha? Which aspects of dukkha, specifically?

Good question.
What Buddha asking is why we take external factors subject to Anicca , Dukkha and Anatta as I me and myself.
The objective of Buddha’s teaching is not to make external factors attain Nibbana.
Even Buddha has passed away, the external factors are still subject to Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta.

So if the external factors remain subject to dukkha, and we are stuck with them, how does the cessation of dukkha actually happen?

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I think this was discussed at length. :heart: Sorry I can’t find the posts now.

Hi Martin I would contemplate first why is dukkha (in relation to existence) perceived as dukkha first. If you think (for ex: old age) dukkha is not dukkha then going from there to cause of dukkha, cessation and path will be complicated. Also we have to remember that dukkha arise within us. Nothing external is labelled as dukkha. I am not saying you have no idea about it. But if in doubt go back to step one and try to clear the remaining doubt in there to 0% first. I hope the suttas and watching your thoughts will help. :pray:t4:

Agree.
That is why we have to eliminate craving so we will not stuck with external or internal.
Good post.

My assumption has been that dukkha is purely “internal”, and that dukkha fully ceases for the Arahant.
But have another look at the OP sutta, which says that sense-objects (the “exterior”) are also dukkha. This raises a question: How does dukkha cease if sense-objects are inherently unsatisfactory, due to anicca? How does dukkha cease while sense-objects continue?
If you check the adjoining suttas, you’ll see that dukkha here is one of the three marks of existence.