How long is the Pink Lotus (paduma) hell?

The Pali canon includes several words for very large numbers, which are used to describe things such as the length of rebirth in heavens and hells. As so often, I feel there are two schools of interpretation: one is that these are real and literal, these are the exact numbers of calendar years. The other is that they are simply metaphors and ought not be taken too seriously. The problem is that both approaches impose preconceptions on the text and preclude a meaningful inquiry.

It is possible, indeed probable, that the numbers mentioned in the texts mean something, even if we are not exactly sure what that is. But we are not able to decide this, or even think meaningfully about it, so long as we do not know what the numbers actually are.

The Kokālika Sutta (Snp 3.10) offers a unique opportunity to study a set of large numbers. It concerns the corrupt monk Kokālika, who, so the Buddha says, is condemned to hell for calumny. The Sutta does not just give us the length of time he is to spend in hell, it supplies no less than three independent counts of the duration of the paduma (“Pink Lotus”) hell. More, it contains a material simile that can be calculated; and a commentarial passage that gives exact numbers. At the very least, this shows that the tradition was interested in the quantity of the numbers, and that it believed they needed exegesis (neyyattha).

The passages are as follows:

  • Prose: Lengths of a series of hells culminating in the paduma on a scale multiplied by twenty.
  • Verse a: Length of paduma hell in abbudas and nirabbudas.
  • Verse b: Length of paduma hell in nahutas and koṭis.
  • Simile: The number of sesame seeds on a cart.
  • Commentary: Exact quantity of all the numbers.

Verse b is unique to the Kokālika Sutta, and has no commentary (the commentary in fact says that there is no commentary in the Old Commentary on which it is based). The other passages are found also in AN 10.89 and SN 6.10 and their commentaries. They also have a parallel in DA 30:104 ff., which is similar in most details, but lacks a parallel to verse b.

First a note on the obscure numerical terms.

The koṭi, as its name suggests, was, it seems, originally the final “point” of a series of numbers that were more or less usable and practical. It is rather consistently reckoned as 10 million and may be regarded as the old word for the number known in Hindi as a crore.

The nahuta is presumably the Sanskrit niyuta with an unusual shift from y to h. In the Rig Veda and Śatapatha Brāhmaṇa it is a “team” of horses usually of Vāyu the wind. This seems to have shifted the meaning from a “harnessed team” to “countless”. The related word ayuta appears apparently as “ten thousand” in Rig Veda 4.26.7. Later Sanskrit sources give a variety of values, but ten thousand seems dominant.

Nahuta is used canonically to express the number of people in a large crowd (Kd 1:22.8.2). There, the commentary explains it as 10,000. It also appears at Milinda 5.5.7:3.1, where 10,000 would also seem to fit. We will assume that the nahuta has the value of 10,000 for this essay.

The abbuda is derived from the name of the snake Arbuda crushed beneath Indra’s foot, where he is mentioned along with other foes such as Vritra, Namuci, etc. (Rig Veda 1.51.6, 2.11.20, 2.14.4, 8.3.19, 8.32.3, 8.32.26, 10.67.12). As Arbuda Kādraveya he is, rather curiously, said to have composed Rig Veda 10.94, where he addresses the pressing stones, who “speak as if in hundreds, in thousands”. Might this have something to do with the use of arbuda as a large number? He is also invoked in Śatapatha Brāhmaṇa 13.4.3.9.

Arbuda is also used for an embryo (also in Pali, SN 10.1:3.2), and a tumor such as cancer (metaphorically for a bandit or “pest” at SN 1.77:1.4, DN 30:1.5.5.). The common thread is “a dangerous, slug-like growing entity”. I’m not exactly clear how this was parlayed into a large number. In any case, it and the following numbers in the series may be regarded as “mythic”, rather than practical numbers used for accounting such as the koṭi and nahuta.

The dominant value of abbuda is “ten million”, and while other values exist, this works out for the current text. The commentary supplies its own reckoning of a very large abbuda, and while this seems less plausible to me, it still works out as a number in the correct series.

Nirabbuda is simply an amplification of the abbuda. Usually reckoned as a hundred million, in the prose it is said to be twenty times an abbuda, so there it is 200 million.


For more on these details, there’s a handy source for several systems of reckoning numbers in History of Hindu Mathematics: a source book, Part 1, pp. 9ff, Bibhutibhusan Datta and Avadesh Narayan Singh (1935).

method

There are two main reasons I was dissatisfied with the numbers in this text. First, they did not seem to add up to the same value, even though they are counting the same thing. And second, by many methods of reckoning, depending on the chosen values of the large numbers, you end up with rounding error problems. That is, you have a very large number and a much smaller number that are supposed to be added, but the result is that the smaller number would just be rounded away. You end up with numbers like 2.000725 × 10⁴⁸. I feel like this is bad maths, and the ancient texts would not express themselves like this. So I was looking for results that would make a reasonable number.

I reached my conclusions using a somewhat scattershot method. Without making any assumptions, I simply plugged the various options in to the various passages and calculated what came out. Only after a lot of legwork did the patterns become clear: the three methods were all aiming at the same destination (in a way).

Compare it to making your way through a jungle. You have three starting points, and you’re told that there is a single exit point. Between them there are many ways you can trace your path through the jungle. How are you to know if you’re on the right track? The only way, really, is to follow every lead and see where they end up. When you find three paths that all end up at the same place, they must be the right paths.

This is complicated by the fact that the final numbers are not literally the same. Their identity is numerological rather than mathematical. That means to say, they are not exactly the same numbers, but they are related numbers with the same meaning.

The key number is 512. This expresses a numerological meaning. Five hundred is well known in Pali as expressing a “large number”, for example of people in a crowd. Twelve as a duration of time is obviously the twelve months of the year. Together they express the meaning, “a large duration of time” or “many years”.

In one instance, we find instead the number thirty-six. This is an amplified version of twelve, expressing “twelve months past, present, future”. Thus while 12 and 36 are different mathematically, they are the same numerologically.

It is perhaps relevant to note that 36 is a conventional number for a period of time, as shown by AN 7.42 and AN 7.43. There we find a discussion of whether a bhikkhu “graduates” after a certain number of years (as in the Vedic system). The Buddha denies this, and says they graduate when they are trained, no matter if it takes 12, 24, 36, or 48 years. The numbers ascend in multiples of 12, echoing various Brahmanical standards for studentship. 36 is also the number of the “streams of craving”, i.e. the internal and external senses in past, present, and future (Dhp 339:2). Finally, in Tha Ap 69:7.3 we have the ordinal locative chattiṁsatimhi, “in the 36th (aeon)”.

These basic numbers are multiplied by powers of ten. The value of these powers are different in each case, but the basic sense is the same, to express an expansion of the basic number. So each conveys the sense, “a super-long duration of time”.

We see the same principle in the relation between the sesame simile and the series of hells. As we shall see, the numbers here do not match up. But each involves the number twenty multiplied by ten or a hundred. Here the twenty is simply a reinforced ten.

I won’t bore you with all the many byways and diversions that the numbers offer. Instead, I’ll present my conclusions, with a few examples of alternatives.

the prose

The prose passage presents us with a straightforward method of getting from the abbuda to the paduma (Pink Lotus) using a series of powers of twenty. Assuming the abbuda of 10 million, we have:

prose, abbuda = koṭi Scale of twenty
abbuda 10,000,000
nirabbuda 200,000,000
paduma 5.12×10¹⁸

The commentary gives a method of calculating, which you can see in Ven Bodhi’s translation of the Sutta Nipāta commentary. I won’t spell it out here, but it results in a very large abbuda. I feel this is too far outside the normal reckoning of the abbuda, but in any case it results in a factor of 512.

prose, commentarial method Scale of twenty
abbuda 10⁴²
nirabbuda 2 × 10⁴³
paduma 5.12 × 10⁵³

verse b

This verse is only found in the Sutta Nipāta version, and it is probably late since it has no commentary. Nonetheless, we will tackle it first as it is fairly straightforward.

Nahutāni hi koṭiyo pañca bhavanti,
Dvādasa koṭisatāni punaññā.
For there are five nahutas of koṭis,
plus another twelve hundred koṭis.

We can use this as a handy example of the rounding error problem. Here are the results obtained by plugging in various values of the nahuta.

verse b paduma
nahuta = 10²⁸ 5 × 10³⁵
nahuta = 10,000 5.12 × 10¹¹
nahuta = 100,000 5.012 × 10¹²
nahuta = 1,000,000 5.0012 × 10¹³

As you can see, only the value of 10,000 has a coherent result, and that result is 512. This shows that we’re on the right track, as we now have two paths to the same destination, differing only in the power of ten.

We can now properly translate verse b:

Nahutāni hi koṭiyo pañca bhavanti,
Dvādasa koṭisatāni punaññā.
For there are five times ten thousand, times ten million years,
plus another twelve hundred times ten million.

verse a

Verse a is tricky to parse out and to translate. The cases are straightforward enough: sataṁ, chattiṁsati, and pañca are nominative singular; sahassānaṁ nirabbudānaṁ is genitive plural; abbudāni is nominative plural. The problem is how the numbers are supposed to relate to one another.

The commentary, followed by translators such as Bodhi and Norman, connects the first line with the number 36 in the second. For example, Bodhi has:

Sataṁ sahassānaṁ nirabbudānaṁ,
chattiṁsati pañca ca abbudāni
For a hundred thousand nirabbudas
and thirty-six more, and five abbudas

Thus gives a total number of nirabbudas as 100,036, which again is a strange number.

Looking further afield, we find a similar passage on the lifespan of Baka Brahma (SN 6.4:5.3):

Sataṁ sahassānaṁ nirabbudānaṁ,
Āyuṁ pajānāmi tavāhaṁ brahme”ti.

A hundred of thousands of nirabbudas
is how I understand your lifespan, Brahmā.

Here it is clear that the first line stands alone as a number. Note that this is in the Sagāthāvagga, which is where a shorter (and perhaps earlier) version of the Kokālika Sutta is also found. We find other similar constructions there too:

SN 1.32:14.3: Sataṁ sahassānaṁ sahassayāginaṁ

SN 5.5:4.1: Sataṁ sahassānipi dhuttakānaṁ

Thus we have four lines starting with “hundred thousands” in the Sagāthāvagga collection, and in three of those instances the line definitely stands on its own.

We should probably treat our current passage the same way, and read each line as a distinct number. Thus we shall have to construe chattiṁsati pañca ca abbudāni as a coherent phrase. It does seem like an odd construction, and we might wonder why this form was chosen to express a number.

Vanarata suggests that the “thousands” of the first line should be distributed to the second line as well (Bodhi, Numerical Discourses, note 626, p. 1678). This kind of distribution of terms is common in mathematics; for an example in Pali verse, see SN 6.6:5.1. Here, however, it provides a crucial key to interpretation and translation.

But we need to go further: the singular “hundred” in the first line is distributed to the singulars 36 and 5 in the second, while the plural “thousands” is distributed to the plural abbudāni (“tens of millions”).

Thus we read the distributed line here as chattiṁsati pañcasataṁ ca (five hundred plus thirty-six) sahassānaṁ abbudāni (“of thousands, tens of millions”). These juxtaposed numbers are multiplied.

The duration of the Pink Lotus then works out as (100,000 × 100,000,000) × (536 × 1000 × 10,000,000) = 5.36 × 10²⁵ years.

Note that this does not work out if we use the scale of twenty for the nirabbuda, as we did in the prose, as this would result in 1.072 × 10²⁶.

We may now translate verse a:

Sataṁ sahassānaṁ nirabbudānaṁ,
chattiṁsati pañca ca abbudāni
A hundred thousand times a hundred million years,
times five hundred and thirty-six, times a thousand, times ten million

how many sesames fit on a cart?

We have so far been using the base numbers, especially the koṭi, as defined in the commentary, which is then multiplied to yield the abbuda. However the Sutta reckons the abbuda not from the koṭi but by a simile.

Suppose there was a Kosalan cartload of twenty bushels of sesame seed. And at the end of every hundred years someone would remove a single seed from it. By this means the Kosalan cartload of twenty bushels of sesame seed would run out faster than a single lifetime in the Abbuda hell.

Perhaps this is merely illustrative of a “very large number”. But unless we can actually calculate it, we cannot say that it is not a genuine number. Fortunately, it seems we can, in fact, work it out with some confidence.

A sesame seed weighs about 0.002 grams (“Some Physical Properties of Sesame Seed”, T.Y. Tunde-Akintunde and B.O. Akintund).

The “pack” (khāri, originally “donkey-load”) of the Arthaśāstra is about 150 kg (Olivelle King, Governance, and Law, appendix 2, pg. 458). Twenty packs would be 3 tons, which is reasonable for a “load” (vāha) drawn by a heavy bullock cart (Arthaśāsatra 2.19.33 reckons the vaha similarly at about 2 tons). This results in 1.5 billion seeds and 150 billion years.

On the other hand, the Pali khāri is carried by a single person and must be closer to 20 kg (sn3.11:2.1, sn7.9:14.1, dn3:2.4.7, ud6.2:2.1). That would make a “Kosalan load” of 400 kg, which is reasonable for a load drawn by a single horse. This results in 250 million seeds and 25 billion years. This number is interesting because it is similar to the modern cosmological estimate of the life of the Universe.

Neither of these results, however, agrees very well with the other calculations in this Sutta.

It seems that the correspondence is not in the result but the simple numbers: twenty packs each hundred years correspond to the twenty times ten of the hells.

conclusion

Our final numbers for the duration of rebirth in the Pink Lotus hell are:

passage assumptions paduma
prose abbuda = koṭi (× 20 scale) 5.12 × 10¹⁸
verse a abbuda = koṭi (× 10 scale), distributed and multiplied 5.36 × 10²⁵
verse b nahuta = 10,000 5.12 × 10¹¹

We’ve tamed the apparently random and indecipherable numbers into something that, if not mathematically exact, follows a simple and culturally appropriate pattern:

  • Powers of ten don’t matter too much.
  • Twelve can be amplified to thirty-six.
  • Use standard koṭi = abbuda (but commentarial method also works here).
  • Use scale of twenties in prose, scale of tens in verse for nirabbuda.

But there’s more! What is the relationship between these figures? Turns out, it’s a very simple one. Each is derived by a multiple of ten million, namely a koṭi/abbuda. The use of this as a multiple of very large numbers is quite characteristic, as Indian numbers prefer the sequence 100,000 (lak) to 10,000,000 (crore) rather than the Western “million”.

  • verse b paduma (5.12 × 10¹¹) times koṭi/abbuda (10⁷) = prose paduma (5.12 × 10¹⁸)
  • prose paduma (5.12 × 10¹⁸) times koṭi/abbuda (10⁷) = verse a paduma (5.36 × 10²⁵)

The Sutta relies throughout on the symbolic number of 512. It can be multiplied or strengthened by factors of ten, two or three, but it keeps the internal coherence. In general numerological terms, these numbers express a “super-expansive duration of time”.

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In other words, like Trump’s first 100 days in office?

Joking aside, as we know time is compressible. Or, more accurately, space-time is compressible and the duration experienced depends on the observer and their relative velocity.

Not that the teachings are centered on the scientific understanding of the physical world – but with any mention of time the fact is it’s not fixed and what might be a long duration for some can be short for others. :hourglass_done: :hourglass_not_done:

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There is a parallel in DA 30 => The Long Discourses | 30. Description of the World | Chapter 4. The Hells

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Too soon!

Indeed, and the subjective relativity of time is known in the Suttas, perhaps the first mention of that anywhere in the world.

OMG I missed that, thanks so much! It’s pretty similar in details. The extra explanations of the names of the hells are nice. Well I don’t know if they’re “nice”, but it’s nice to have them.

A hundred thousand lives in the *Nirabhra Hell
And forty-one lives in the *Abhra Hell,

Looks like the translator of the Chinese had the same text, “thirty six and five”, but did not distribute the numbers from the previous line.

Actually I just came across an instance of this today in SN 6.6:5.1, I’ll emend the essay.

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Yeah. I really should sit down and document the various parallels there. There a few different hell-related sutta passages collected together after the great and minor hells.

There are parallels in the alternate translations of DA 30, too. T24 and T25 do the same calculations as DA 30, starting with twenty hu of seed multiplied by centuries. Apparently a hu 斛 was roughly the same as a khāri. T25 has a note telling us this. Then the time in each hell is twenty times the previous hell.

T23, though, calculates the amount of seed needed to get through the time in each hell:

佛言:「譬如有百二十斛四斗篅,滿中芥子,百歲者人取一芥子去。比丘!是百二十斛四升芥子悉盡,人在阿浮泥犁中尚未竟。若人在尼羅浮泥犁中者,百歲取一芥子,盡二千四百八十斛芥子,乃得出耳。[T23.1.286c26]

The Buddha said, "Suppose there was a grain bin filled with a 120 hu and four dou of mustard seeds. (This would be around 65 bushels assuming a hu was 19 liters and a dou was 1.9 liters of grain.) A person takes away one mustard seed every hundred years. Monks, when this 65 bushels of mustard seed is gone, a person’s time in the Abhu Hell would not be finished yet. If someone were in the Nirabhu Hell and they took away a mustard seed every hundred years, it would total 2,480 hu (~ 1350 bushels or roughly 20 times) of mustard seed before they could escape.

And so forth. For some reason, the initial amount is much larger than in the other parallels, 120 hu instead of 20.

There’s also parallel verses in the different versions. T24 and 25 have the same verses, which place the numbers 36 and 5 on different lines. Thirty-six is multiplied by a hundred thousand, which is the number of Nirabhuda hells, and then five Abhuda hells is added to that to arrive at a Paduma hell:

如是三十六百千,
泥囉浮陀地獄數,
及五頞浮陀地獄,
墮彼波頭摩獄中,

Thus, thirty-six hundred thousands
Is the number of Nirabhuda hells
Plus five Abhuda hells
One falls into that Paduma Hell.

But the earliest translation, T23, has something different than all of them:

泥犁浮有百千,
阿浮有三十五。

A hundred thousand Nirabhus
And thirty-five Abhus.

:man_shrugging:

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This is fascinating and it took several attempts before I figured out what’s going on with the translation :upside_down_face:. Still have questions…

Briefly, in Snp3.10:

  1. You will keep the current SC translation (?):

“Sir, how long is the lifespan in the Pink Lotus hell?”
“It’s long, mendicant. It’s not easy to calculate how many years, how many hundreds or thousands or hundreds of thousands of years it lasts.”

  1. Verse b: You changed what you originally had (?):

For there are five nahutas of koṭis ,
plus another twelve hundred koṭis .

to:

They amount to 50,000,000 times 10,000,
plus another 12,000,000,000.

  1. Verse a: What I see now on SC is:

or more than two quinquadecillion years,
and another five quattuordecillion years,

Not having ever encountered those terms (haha! truly), are you going to change it to:

A hundred thousand times a hundred million years,
times five hundred and thirty-six, times a thousand, times ten million

It’s helpful to learn that

And also that 500+12 = 512 in the sutta (reminds me of the 12 loaves and 2 fishes).

I happened on the arbuda counting scheme in the Ramayana where the monkey king calls forth an enormous number of armies… (my curiosity about the term had me looking around a bit).

The rough translation provided:

"Oh, king, some of the fly-jumpers that are arriving are with a hundred-legion, some with a hundred-thousand legion, and even some with millions of legions, while the some are on the way with specific legions like aayuta-s, shanku-s. And oh, valiant one Rama, some with legions of arbuda-s, and some with hundreds of arbuda-s, some with madhya-s, and some with antaH-s are coming. Some more are coming with samudra-s and some with paraardha-s legions of monkeys. [4-38-30, 31, 32]

And interestingly this note:

Rama Tilaka says that by giving these numbers it is to be understood that ‘innumerable monkeys are coming…’ But others hold the view that the ancients have organised military pattern hence particular nomenclature is given to each, apart from the generalisation of Rama Tilaka.

So there’s a theory these terms applied to actual numbers of troops. But it still doesn’t solve the various different meanings of the actual word. For example, I also saw in the Ramayana that it’s the name of a mountain where another serpent is invovled:

a serpent named “Arbuda” saved the life of Nandi (Lord Shiva’s bull). The incident happened on the mountain that is currently known as Mount Abu and so the mountain is named “Arbudaranya” after that incident which gradually became Abu.

Wikipedia

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Ha ha, only if it sparks joy!

Interesting, that must be an early feature. Originally I thought it might be a late feature, as numbers usually multiply by series of tens. But then I realized 20 was needed to reach 512.

Honestly I went thru so many false paths, it’s nuts.

This looks like it’s translated the estimated weight into Chinese?

Interesting that the Chinese texts relate this term to abhra “cloud”, it seems the Sanskrit texts lost the connection with the by-then obscure arbuda “snake”.

Ok, so there’s at least some support for the idea that the hundreds and thousands are distributed.

Maybe the chattimsa was mistaken, so thirty was added to five. Easy to do, it could have been misread as ca.

Yeah, I think so.

I know, but I don’t think it’s a flaw in the translation per se, as the tradition was clearly unfamiliar with the Indic terms as well!

Yes, these changes, and relevant notes, have all been made, they’ll take a few days to appear on the site. (usually we update once a week.

Thanks, interesting context!

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On the topic of Indian names for large numbers, there’s an indecipherable passage in the Dazhidulun that tries to list them all out … transliterated to Chinese by Kumarajiva. I’ve never been able to make heads or tails of it. I think that’s the most extensive listing of named numbers I’ve ever seen in a Buddhist text though. If anyone knows of a long list of such numbers in Sanskrit, I’d be all ears …

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Yeah, no. I translated a long chapter in the Dazhidulun describing all the hells on top of DA 30. I think I’m traumatized for life now … lol.

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This is a most entertaining topic and thread!

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You might know this already, but what about Chapter 12 of Lalitavistara Sutra perhaps? 12.39 starts off with some interesting numbers:

King Śuddhodana then said to the Bodhisattva, “Son, can you match the ways of calculation with the great mathematician Arjuna, an expert in the knowledge of numbers?”

“I can, Your Majesty,” responded the Bodhisattva.

“Then calculate away!” commanded the king.

12.­39

The great mathematician Arjuna then asked the Bodhisattva, “Child, do you know how to calculate the number called ten million to the hundredth power?”

“Yes, I do,” said the Bodhisattva.

“How then,” asked Arjuna, “should one commence that calculation?”

The Bodhisattva replied, “One hundred times ten million is called a billion (ayuta). One hundred times one billion is called one hundred billion (niyuta). One hundred times one hundred billion is called one quadrillion (kañkara). One hundred quadrillions is called one sextillion (vivara). One hundred sextillions is called a nonillion (akṣobhya). One hundred nonillions is called [148] a vivāha. One hundred vivāhas is called an utsañga. One hundred utsañgas is called a bahula. One hundred bahulas is called a nāgabala. One hundred nāgabalas is called a tiṭilambha. [F.76.b] One hundred tiṭilambhas is called a vyavasthāna­prajñapti. One hundred vyavasthāna­prajñaptis is called a hetuhila. One hundred hetuhilas is called a karaphū. One hundred karaphūs is called a hetvindriya. One hundred hetvindriyas is called a samāptalambha. One hundred samāptalambhas is called a gaṇanāgati. One hundred gaṇanāgatis is called a niravadya. One hundred niravadyas is called a mudrābala. One hundred mudrābalas is called a sarvabala. One hundred sarvabalas is called a visaṃjñāgati. One hundred visaṃjñāgatis is called a sarvasaṃjña. One hundred sarvasaṃjñas is called a vibhūtaṃgamā. One hundred vibhūtaṃgamās is called a tallakṣaṇa.

It goes on and on for even weirder numbers. :upside_down_face:

Interestingly enough, we meet Bhante’s 512 again:

“Well,” said Arjuna. “I am uncertain about this. So, child, how much more so will the others, who are of weaker intellect, be confused? Child, please explain how many of the smallest particles make up a league.”

The Bodhisattva explained, “A league contains 100 billion nonillions, 30 quintillions, 60 billion, 320 million, 512 thousand smallest particles. Such is the sum of smallest particles in a league…"

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Thanks for pointing this out. Back when I was struggling with that problem, 84000.co hadn’t published much yet.

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