How to balance "going alone" and being "self-sufficient" with loneliness?

[Javier6]

Greetings dear people

Yesterday, I listened to a Dhamma talk from Ajahn Brahm called “No self-sufficiency” (from year 2013) where he said that “you cannot be self sufficient; we need to give and share. If you’re self-sufficient, you’ll end up lonely”.

Today, I read a poem from the Dhammapada where the Buddha said:

If you gain a mature companion…

Go with him, gratified, mindful.

If you don’t get a mature companion… go alone, like a king renouncing his kingdom, like the elephant in the Matanga hills, his herd.

Going alone is better, there’s no companionship with a fool.

Go alone, doing no evil at peace, like the elephant in the Matanga hills.

328-330

Now my question is, how can one balance being alone, not doing evil at peace, and not being totally self-reliant and ending up lonely? What’s the most skillful way to balance these teachings?

Looking forward to hear from you. May you be happy

[NgXinZhao]

In terms of alms food and many physical needs, we need other people. This is inescapable for monastics.

But having received alms food, a monastic doesn’t have to associate with lay people.

The mature companion in the Dhammapada is likely to refer to other monastics for monastics. Therein, one is better off practising alone if the monastics around one are not behaving well.

@Javier6

ending up lonely?

If being alone can still make one lonely, then it’s attachments to other people that are to be let go of.

For lay people, it’s good to form good friendships in Buddhist societies, and keep on practising, attending retreat etc, but at some point, one’s cultivation level can go beyond one’s Buddhist circle friends, when they still invite each other for movies or other sensual enjoyment as a form of bonding, or like Dhamma camps for youths, whereas one is beyond that level, and much prefer to go for retreats with the free time off work, then it’s indeed better to go on alone. And join the monastic if one is able to. Or upgrade the Buddhist friends to serious meditators/ practitiones only.

Different level, different advice can be given.

Good friendship is the whole of the spiritual path. So that is also relevant in that the first 5 years of a monk’s life are under dependence, and one learns a lot in a community of monks, learning how to behave and think like a renounciant, how to have one’s views straighten, especially the more subtle points of the doctrine, which is controversial in the world, eg the nature of parinibbana.

One develops habits by associating with people with good habits, and usually in the suttas where the monks go alone to meditate after getting a meditation object/instruction from the Buddha, it’s after graduating from dependancy.

Do notice, that if one’s companions are good, then there’s no need to go at it alone. Although of course, seclusion is also needed for deep meditation. Just that even the most hermit of monastics will have to come out for the twice monthly patimokkha recitation, where one meets with other monastics.

[Javier6]

@NgXinZhao

For lay people, it’s good to form good friendships in Buddhist societies

If, for someone who’s a lay follower, and can’t find a good friendship nowhere, then how could that lay follower keep practicing well alone?

[NgXinZhao]

This is the place to mix with spiritual friends then, but then this forum doesn’t allow sort of serious deep practise related guidance right? There’s other forums online, and one can also make a Buddhist society locally, you might be surprised at the number of closet Buddhists practising in secret.

Also, can travel for annual retreats.

Taking sutta as teacher, one just reads and practise accordingly. Also, there’s one new tech which I am not allowed to promote here, but can be a very good spiritual friend. Maybe I pm you.

[moxu]

The Path can only be walked alone. At a certain point it’s best to be alone and endure that discomfort, than seek company (even good companionship) if the only reason for that is to have company. A good companion would also want to get away from you if there is no need to be in your company.

There is no problem in being lonely… Also, there is no “balance” that one should mantain. If one needs guidance in the Dhamma, one seeks companions. The sutta is also a companion. If one knows what needs to be done, one give up the companions and live alone, practicing dilligently. That also means that keeping studying the Suttas when one already knows what to do is already unbeneficial. Sometimes, there is no way to avoid company, but there is a way to avoid interactions. Sometimes, there is no way to avoid interactions, then one should be mindful. In the end, the standard should be live alone.

[Adutiya]

@moxu

The Path can only be walked alone. At a certain point it’s best to be alone and endure that discomfort, than seek company (even good companionship) if the only reason for that is to have company.

I think the suttas say exactly the opposite. Certainly one is ultimately responsible for doing what has to be done, to live the spiritual life. But there are too many benefits to having “good friends” and too many drawbacks of trying to do it alone. If one is lonely, your teacher and your good companions can help you deal with that hinderance.

SN 45.2

So I have heard. At one time the Buddha was staying in the land of the Sakyans, where they have a town named Townsville. Then Venerable Ānanda went up to the Buddha, bowed, sat down to one side, and said to him:

“Sir, good friends, companions, and associates are half the spiritual life.”

“Not so, Ānanda! Not so, Ānanda! Good friends, companions, and associates are the whole of the spiritual life. A mendicant with good friends, companions, and associates can expect to develop and cultivate the noble eightfold path.

SN 45.84

“Mendicants, I do not see a single thing that gives rise to the noble eightfold path, or, if it’s already arisen, fully develops it like good friendship. A mendicant with good friends can expect to develop and cultivate the noble eightfold path.

And how does a mendicant with good friends develop and cultivate the noble eightfold path? It’s when a mendicant develops right view, right purpose, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right immersion, which culminate in the removal of greed, hate, and delusion. That’s how a mendicant with good friends develops and cultivates the noble eightfold path.”

AN 9.1 In this sutta the Buddha gives 9 important reasons to have good friends:

“Mendicants, if wanderers of other religions were to ask: ‘Reverends, what is the vital condition for the development of the qualities on the same side as awakening?’ How would you answer them?”

“Our teachings are rooted in the Buddha. … The mendicants will listen and remember it.”

“Well then, mendicants, listen and apply your mind well, I will speak.”

“Yes, sir,” they replied. The Buddha said this:

“Mendicants, if wanderers of other religions were to ask: ‘Reverends, what is the vital condition for the development of the qualities on the same side as awakening?’ You should answer them:

‘It’s when a mendicant has good friends, companions, and associates. This is the first vital condition for the development of the awakening factors.

Furthermore, a mendicant is ethical, restrained in the monastic code, conducting themselves well and resorting for alms in suitable places. Seeing danger in the slightest fault, they keep the rules they’ve undertaken. This is the second vital condition for the development of the qualities on the same side as awakening.

Furthermore, a mendicant gets to take part in talk about self-effacement that helps open the heart, when they want, without trouble or difficulty. That is, talk about fewness of wishes, contentment, seclusion, aloofness, arousing energy, ethics, immersion, wisdom, freedom, and the knowledge and vision of freedom. This is the third vital condition for the development of the qualities on the same side as awakening.

Furthermore, a mendicant lives with energy roused up for giving up unskillful qualities and embracing skillful qualities. They are strong, staunchly vigorous, not slacking off when it comes to developing skillful qualities. This is the fourth vital condition for the development of the qualities on the same side as awakening.

Furthermore, a mendicant is wise. They have the wisdom of arising and passing away which is noble, penetrative, and leads to the complete ending of suffering. This is the fifth vital condition for the development of the qualities on the same side as awakening.’

A mendicant with good friends, companions, and associates can expect to be ethical …

A mendicant with good friends, companions, and associates can expect to take part in talk about self-effacement that helps open the heart …

A mendicant with good friends, companions, and associates can expect to live with energy roused up …

A mendicant with good friends, companions, and associates can expect to be wise …

But then, a mendicant grounded on these five things should develop four further things. They should develop the perception of ugliness to give up greed, love to give up hate, mindfulness of breathing to cut off thinking, and perception of impermanence to uproot the conceit ‘I am’. When you perceive impermanence, the perception of not-self becomes stabilized. Perceiving not-self, you uproot the conceit ‘I am’ and attain extinguishment in this very life.”

[moxu]

@Adutiya

But there are too many benefits to having “good friends” and too many drawbacks of trying to do it alone. If one is lonely, your teacher and your good companions can help you.

I’m not saying that that’s not the case. Like I said, untill a certain point one needs good companionship, since, for example, one of right view factors is the word of another. However, one should not be fond of company, and one should be in company only when necessary.

There is no path without seclusion.

And like I said, good companies would think like that too for them.

If one does not need further instructions, have to themselves what should be done, have no doubts worthy of clarifying, and most of the conversations are started because of being uncomfortable of silence, or for distraction, even if someone is talking about Dhamma, one is best parting ways and being alone for the time being.

My point is being in good company is not always wholesome. Most of the time it probably won’t be specially for one who is not an Arahant.

[Stacie]

@moxu

My point is being in good company is not always wholesome.

It seems like the key word here is ‘good’ company.

For me, I have found that company is variable. Sometimes when I feel the ‘company’ is not good, in retrospect, there is benefit there when I reflect on the experience. The experience of another being in my ‘space’ as it were.

[Adutiya]

@moxu

My point is being in good company is not always wholesome. Most of the time it probably won’t be specially for one who is not an Arahant.

It goes without saying that seclusion is ultra important, but in the suttas, I understand seclusion is meant more in terms of on jhana level, not exclusively or even primarily living alone and attempting to go the whole N8FP all alone. So most of the time one would need the good company of the Sangha. Without those good friends and one’s teacher, one could easily fall into delusion.

lI’m not a monastic, but my impression based on the suttas and my firsthand experience with watching and learning from monastics, I see the Sangha as extraordinarily community minded and not so much isolationist hermits. I don’t know, but isn’t it expected that even the “hermit” monastics attend uposatha and rains retreats?

[moxu]

@Adutiya

It goes without saying that seclusion is ultra important, but in the suttas, I understand seclusion is meant more in terms of on jhana level, not exclusively or even primarily living alone and attempting to go the whole N8FP all alone.

You can see many occasions where after hearing the Dhamma from the Buddha in brief, one goes alone and reflect on what was said and attain right view or arahantship. Even in the mundane world seclusion from the world is beneficial. Companies and duties distract one too much. The Buddha was always wandering alone from time to time to just enjoy solitude. I am not of the view that one need to have guidance every literal step of the way.

It is like trying to reach a location and for every step you stop a person to ask what should the next step be. Usually you ask someone directions, and you go on alone turning on streets, looking at the signs, trying to figure it out where you are and when you are lost again you ask another person. I truly believe that one being self-honest and reading the suttas alone one can reach the goal.

Anyway, not anyone can avoid good company and if the good company does not make your mind bring or mantain unwholesome behaviour, there’s no reason not to, one can only benefit from it. One cannot avoid being without company, and if you know what should be done there is no reason to seek company.

@Adutiya

I’m not a monastic, but my impression based on the suttas and my firsthand experience with watching and learning from monastics, I see the Sangha as extraordinarily community minded and not so much isolationist hermits. I don’t know, but isn’t it expected that even the “hermit” monastics attend uposatha and rains retreats?

Yes, that is an obligation as a monastic and one should do their obligations. AN 8.30:

(3) “When it was said: ‘This Dhamma is for one who resorts to solitude, not for one who delights in company,’ with reference to what was this said? Here, when a bhikkhu resorts to solitude, bhikkhus, bhikkhunīs, male lay followers, female lay followers, kings, royal ministers, heads of other sects, and disciples belonging to other sects approach him. In each case, with a mind that slants, slopes, and inclines to seclusion, withdrawn, delighting in renunciation, he gives them a talk invariably concerned with dismissing them. When it was said: ‘This Dhamma is for one who resorts to solitude, not for one who delights in company,’ it is with reference to this that this was said.

[Sumana]

@moxu

I truly believe that one being self-honest and reading the suttas alone one can reach the goal.

@moxu

if you know what should be done there is no reason to seek company.

So why are you here in the forum at all? One should practice what one preaches first.

[Dheerayupa]

@NgXinZhao

upgrade the Buddhist friends to serious meditators/ practitioners only.

@NgXinZhao

There’s other forums online…

Also, can travel for annual retreats.

Taking sutta as teacher, one just reads and practise accordingly.

That’s how I’ve been practising for over twenty years now.

As a layperson who still enjoys a few creature comforts, I really look forward to the annual retreat with Ajahn Brahm organised by Bodhinyana Singapore. It’s always a lovely experience — enjoyable from a layperson’s point of view, and deeply supportive for my meditation and Dhamma practice with Ajahn Brahm’s guidance.

May the Force (of the dhamma) be with you

[NgXinZhao]

As I had presented, it’s different people, different situations, different times, different advice.

Please don’t take any hardline stance or talk past each other.

There are stages in a monastic’s life where community living is more beneficial; there are stages when one would wish to go into seclusion, either in a group or solo retreat and live as a hermit. Both are valuable.

Even when under dependence for the first 5 years, it’s good that, from time to time, one goes into solo retreat and only joins in the Patimokkha recitation; food can even be delivered directly to the monastic by other monastics.

Lay life can sort of take inspiration from that too, or what I adviced above at least.

[dastharak]

Perhaps `Theranāmaka sutta’ is useful in this context SN 21.10

[faujidoc1]

One needs

1. Good friends and companions who encourage one to hear the Teaching (AN 10.61)
2. A good Teacher to explain the Teaching
3. Time alone to think over and understand the Teaching theoretically
4. Good friends, companions and teachers to explain the points one did not quite understand and to guide one in training (AN 4.94)
5. Having trained oneself sufficiently in virtue and mindfulness and having developed a good grasp of the theory, one needs to meditate in seclusion - this allows the defilements to settle temporarily so that one may develop jhana, experiential insight and wisdom (MN 107)
6. While developing the path to the extent possible, one needs interaction with people (especially ordinary/lay people) to check if the defilements have truly been eradicated or more work needs to be done (MN 69)- the danger here is that if one gets involved with them, they can throw one completely off the track (SN 35.241)
7. Rewind, Redo until there is knowledge and vision of Release

---

How can one ever be alone?
There’s always Me there!

[Dogen]

@NgXinZhao

As I had presented, it’s different people, different situations, different times, different advice.

Please don’t take any hardline stance or talk past each other.

Thanks for this wise call, bhante.

It’s obvious the value of good friendship, as per the “Good friendship is the whole of the path.”

Likewise, AN 8.53 says (among other things):

“Gotamī, you might know that certain things lead to crowding, not seclusion. Categorically, you should remember these things as not the teaching, not the training, and not the Teacher’s instructions.

You might know that certain things lead to seclusion, not crowding. Categorically, you should remember these things as the teaching, the training, and the Teacher’s instructions.”

The interesting thing to me is the word “saṅgaṇikāya” for crowding; like the boat, even the Sangha seems to be abandoned at a certain point.

I think it’s useful to have good friends that promote each other’s seclusion. Doesn’t that make sense?

The world is infatuated with crowding, company, chatter, interaction. It might make us feel weird or wrong for disliking these things and for pursuing seclusion.

Perhaps the best friends, the whole of the path, leads to a graceful abandon of all ties, the need for all supports. Good friends may respect our seclusion instead of shaming us for it.

Harmony and being at peace may not necessarily imply cherishing company whenever possible. It seems even the Buddha was tired of crowds and students at various points in the suttas.

[Javier6]

@Dogen

It seems even the Buddha was tired of crowds and students at various points in the suttas.

@Stacie

Sometimes when I feel the ‘company’ is not good, in retrospect, there is benefit there when I reflect on the experience. The experience of another being in my ‘space’ as it were.

@moxu

I truly believe that one being self-honest and reading the suttas alone one can reach the goal.

These quotes actually helped me to make a point: good companions are important, but if you can’t find them, you don’t waste energy searching for people who are willing to give you nothing.

Also, thinking too much it’s tiring and that stresses the mind, as the Buddha said.

[moxu]

That is an important point, but an even important one is to see your attitude towards the company of the good friends, after you secured some. If nothing unwholesome arises, and the existent unwholesome ceases, and wholesome qualities arises and the existent ones are mantained, the attitude is correct, there is much value in staying with these friends.

If that is not the case (unwholesome arises, wholesome ceases) then it is best to part ways with these friends for now. See, even the company of good friends can make unwholesome qualities arise if one does not pay attention. A good friend may point that out for you, but sometimes it is so subtle externally, that a good friend don’t even know it.

[Stacie]

@Dheerayupa

May the Force (of the dhamma) be with you

Of course, we know you meant, “Live long and prosper (in the dhamma).”

Or maybe you meant, May the Force (of the dhamma) be with you.

A friend of my used to put his hand up and say, (), “Live long and prosper, () peaceful.” That friend was a good friend.

I think it’s also important to remember that you can chose your friends. Reflect on the time you spend with them with as much clarity as possible. As has been said, if the time brings up wholesome thoughts and feelings for you put them in the good friend category, if the time brings unwholesome thoughts and feelings, wipe them out of the friend category.

Another friend of mine used to say, “You can pick your friends, and you can pick your nose…but, you can’t wipe your friends on the back of the couch.” (Not exactly dhamma, but still the truth).

[Dheerayupa]

@Stacie

May the Force (of the dhamma) be with you

I meant it + symbol without words

A hobby classmate of mine had been a good associate (not friend friend category) for a long time until one day she became a dhamma good friend (kalyanamitta). Even though we live in a different country, we text and we talk on the phone about once a week about the dhamma and how we have successfully or unsuccessfully applied a teaching or two to deal with problems we have experienced. We also tell each other what particular teaching we’re inspired to practice in the near future, etc.

We don’t need many friends. We just need one. If you can’t find a layperson, pretend that a good monastic is your friend and listen to that monastic’s talks every or every other day.