If someone is able to practice and sustain the first Jhana daily, but still experiences mild mental defilements, should they continue their practice? What are the methods to gradually eradicate defilements after reaching the Jhana states?
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If they still experience defilements, they have not actually achieved jhÄna. They need to deepen their samÄdhi further.
But yes, to deepen the samÄdhi they may need to overcome defilements. The most important impediment will be sensual desire. So any practice that reduces your attachment to the body and the five senses will be helpful, such as contemplating the similes given at MN 54 or more specific contemplations such as the four elements. Good luck!
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The suttas state that the ending of the defilements is a discernment of wisdom which is directed to by a mind attained to the imperturbable state of the fourth jhana.
If youâve entered the first jhana and you still have defilements, that means that you must go further and enter the fourth jhana.
Once your mind is steadied, purified, and attained to the imperturbable, you are instructed to direct your mind towards the ending of the defilements.
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I seem to have heard that wisdom cannot be gained by Samadhi alone. How ist this wrong?
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A post was split to a new topic: Additional question about the defilements related to samÄdhi
I donât think itâs wrong. SamÄdhi is one of eight path factors, and my understanding is that the other seven need to be developed as well, at least to some extent, for any one of them to be effective.
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mn52
This sutta shows that even with the first jhana, it can also be used to eradicate mental defilements if one abides in it. Is the duration of abiding a factor that we need to consider?
I donât think one can attain the jhanas if the mind is still defiled. However, for example, a Stream-Enterer may still have certain mental defilements (not yet fully eradicated) and still attain higher meditative states. What do you think?
What I mean is that defilements can be temporarily suppressed, allowing someone to attain higher meditative states. However, once they return to normal life, those defilements reappear. Is there any way to completely eliminate them?
an4.123
This sutta suggests that even an unlearned ordinary person can abide in Jhana.
So Jhana alone is not enough to become SotÄpanna.
Assume that you are a SotÄpanna and know what to do to finish the game, what will you do after successfully abide in Jhana(s)?
As I said above, may be time is a factor, and one simply just need to abide in Jhana enough time before level up 
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Quite right. The problem is that you tend not to know whether you have any defilements left until you attain a jhÄna. Only then can you be sure that you understand what an undefiled mind looks like.
Yes. However, the inclination of the stream-enterer is always away from the defilements. In other words, as soon as they go into solitude, their mind inclines away from the defilements and towards samÄdhi. This is a power the ordinary person, the puthujjana, does not have. And so the minds of the ariyas tend to self-purify, whereas this is not the case for regular people. Here is a nice sutta reference for this, from MN 48:
And how does the view that is noble and emancipating lead one who practices it to the complete ending of suffering? Itâs when a mendicant has gone to a wilderness, or to the root of a tree, or to an empty hut, and reflects like this, âIs there anything that Iâm overcome with internally and havenât given up, because of which I might not accurately know and see?â If a mendicant is overcome with sensual desire, itâs their mind thatâs overcome. If a mendicant is overcome with ill will, dullness and drowsiness, restlessness and remorse, doubt, pursuing speculation about this world, pursuing speculation about the next world, or arguing, quarreling, and disputing, continually wounding others with barbed words, itâs their mind thatâs overcome. They understand, âThere is nothing that Iâm overcome with internally and havenât given up, because of which I might not accurately know and see. My mind is properly disposed for awakening to the truths.â This is the first knowledge they have achieved that is noble and transcendent, and is not shared with ordinary people.
Yes, this is true, but again itâs nuanced. If you attain jhÄna on a regular basis, like daily, the defilements will never, or very rarely, even get the chance to appear. This is why I said that someone who still has problems with defilements is almost certainly not attaining jhÄna on a regular basis.
If, however, you stop practicing jhÄna for an extended period, then the defilement will eventually come back, even quite strongly. Then you will have to overcome them again.
Yes there is, namely, through insight after jhÄna.
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Yes there is, namely, through insight after jhÄna.
Do you mean wisdom in daily life by saying âthrough insightâ? For example, the people who get Jhana return to daily life and experience various real life scenarios, and by acting right, they overcome the defilements?
Or just stay in Jhana(s) as long as possible?
mn52
Abiding in that they attain the ending of defilements.
In this case, the duration of dwelling in jhana and the intensity of the jhana are the determining factors.
I mean insight soon after you emerge from the samÄdhi. Usually this happens while you are still sitting or perhaps while doing walking meditation. Insight happens as you review your samÄdhi experience, including any jhÄna you may have attained. Once you get active with your daily chores, you will lose the razer sharp focus and it is unlikely you will have deep insights.
Just allow the jhÄna to continue as naturally as possible. You emerge when the conditions that sustain it come to an end.
Here is a bit more context from MN 52:
Householder, itâs when a mendicant, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. Then they reflect: âEven this first absorption is produced by choices and intentions.â They understand: âBut whatever is produced by choices and intentions is impermanent and liable to cessation.â Abiding in that they attain the ending of defilements.
So, the sequence here is as follows:
- Attain a jhÄna
- Emerge from the jhÄna
- Review the jhÄna with insight
- Attain the ending of the defilements.
The duration of the jhÄna is not so important, but the intensity, by which I understand the depth, does matter. That is, the higher jhÄnas are more conducive to insight.
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I had to look up the word âDefilementsâ
DEFILEMENT | English meaning - Cambridge Dictionary
I guess itâs like anything, once you become aware of a hurdle, youâre closer to crossing the bridge than you think.
Take an earworm for example, a piece of music than can just start playing out in your mind at any unintentional moment, itâs not exactly easy to turn it off when it starts, and it can drive some people nuts, especially if it is an annoying piece of music like that âBirdie songâ.
(My apologies if Iâve just triggered an ear worm for somebody out there!)
Yet mysteriously these things stop on there own, usually when another distraction comes along.
So maybe when you become aware of the defilement, except it for what it is and let it play out, with recognition and acceptance you could find it slowly plays out and fades away completely without the need for a distraction, it could even open new doors in the process between the two levels, and allowing you to cross the bridge which sounds like you arenât to far away from!
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I assume the duration is important mainly because one cannot sufficiently purify the mind in a jhana without abiding there for some duration.
The longer one dwells in any given jhana, the more one purifies the mind and/or approaches the conditions which support the next jhana.
However, once the purpose or criteria for the jhana have been achieved, it would seem to be possible at that point to cultivate wisdom. Ie. there would appear to be no other reason to abide longer in a jhana other than to experience the pleasure associated with it for a longer time.
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The final question: In your opinion, what is the key factor in maintaining a Jhana? Could it be food, climate, or the people living around you?
Keeping, even improving, your sīla. And further strengthening your right view.
These can be important, but are secondary to factors mentioned above.
Best of luck with your practice!
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I have examined this dialog and I think you have a pretty good take on something major here that is utterly paradoxical yet deeply ingrained in doctrine.
Both samatha or jhana practice (samadhi), and vipassana or insight practice involve the same things, they have the same basic requirements and they produce interrelated results, since insight supports samadhi with benevolent detachment, and samadhi (with benevolent detachment ) supports insight.
The matter of distractions can be overcome with a kind of mental momentum in concentration efforts, however upon reflection (which happens automatically), some distractions may be perceived (reflexively) as defilements, which is contextually concerning from a moral perspective. The concern captures the attention and can disrupt the samadhiâs momentum if more than mere noting of the perception is indulged. Mere noting of the perceptive mental content with benevolent detachment is sufficient to continue smoothly, but if it becomes a functional distraction that takes the meditator on a tangent, resuming the concentration with benevolent detachment is suitable.
The product of insight here is to see that a concerning perception is a reflex of the conditioned mind with moral values. Everything is as it should be, you can trust your moral references, and you can also trust your practice which is under way. There is no way to disengage your moral references or associations in memory, and there is no way to disengage the perception that connects some fleeting but distracting mental content to the moral associations that may be there: insight is about what is honestly happening, it is not an argument with the self, it is observant benevolent and detached.
Somehow you find your way to continue. However, there is no final solution to escape all defilements that may be perceived, for this is the universe of associative mind, where what happens together each citta is retained among all other citta memories and later what is similar to one thing evokes the memory of what is already familiar. Using what becomes familiar in samadhi practice, insight expands and using what becomes familiar in insight practice, samadhi expands.
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I read the sutta fragment as: One sees that whatever is voltionally produced can never be a path to lasting peace because it will cease.
All that making, constructing, fabricating is never a Path to lasting Peace because all what is made, constructed, fabricated also disintegrated and ceases again. So this is never a true Path to Peace. Peace can only rely on something that is stable, does not desintegrate. Asankhata.
So, one just abandons all passion for new states, new vedanaâs, new vinnanaâs, new experiences âŠknowing that it is not a Path to Peace.
Buddha teaches the Path to what does NOT disintegrate (SN43), the Path to Asankhata. How to arrive there? By giving up the same desire to fabricate this or that state, this or that vedana, this or that vinnana etc.
No, mind does not have to be undefiled to enter jhana. For example, the mind of a sotapanna is indeed, like you said, still defiled. BUT, this is the function of one-pointedness. If you are able to focus, then you can surpress the defilements temporary and enter jhana. One pointedness functions as entrance.
In general the state of the body is also important for entering jhana. Because often when the body is agitated, not relaxed, the mind is hard to concentrate. If one has great pain while dying or feels uncomfortable, i think it will be very difficult to enter jhana. But also when not dying. I do not say it is impossible to enter jhana but concentration most of the time also relies on the state of the body, on bodily calm.
You can read MN2 how to overcome defilements. You can see that the key is not jhana but a wise application of the mind (yoniso manasikara). That kind of vision in the mind that does not give rise to passion, and does not feed the already arisen passion and sees what has to be done. Having a basic understanding of what is the Path and not. Being mindful and knowing what to do and not to do.
Also jhana can still give rise, for example, to more conceit. One might start to feel superior to others. One might even feel one is a real Dhamma expert. In general this happens. Almost always conceit grows by whatever we experience in some spiritual sense. It is rare that conceit does not grow.
You can also read in MN1 how all still can go wrong while things are directly perceived/known, also very deep things . It is never like this, i believe, that having some direct knowledge of something, such as jhana, is in itself purifying. I believe that is what MN1 says.
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You pointed out some reasonable points. However, I still need Jhana as a method to eradicate defilements. I wonât argue too much with opposing views but will simply practice to see how far I can go. Thank you anyway.