"I declare ONLY suffering and its cessation." — The Buddha, indeed

I don’t want to dwell on this much longer, but it seems to me there is a difference. If someone says, “a ball is round”, then assuming we don’t get overly philosophical and for all purposes agree what ‘ball’ and ‘round’ mean, we can take their statement literally. That is different from agreeing upon the meaning of these words but interpreting them to say 'a ball is round, but only when it’s Wednesday". Then we are adding things to what is actually said, which is not literal. Literal means “the most obvious or non-figurative sense of a word or words”. The most obvious sense of “form/feeling/etc is suffering” is that it simply is suffering. I think if we asked any neutral person to interpret that phrase, that is how they would understand it. As far as I know, the Buddha also never says or even implies, “form/feeling/etc is suffering only when attached to”, which means you are implying a context that doesn’t, in my eyes, exist.

Yes. For the enlightened one, suffering is impersonal and not grasped at, so their negative mental response is removed. But it is exactly because they see life as suffering that they can let go of craving for it and not be reborn. As it says in the suttas: “This insight by those who see contradicts the whole world. What others say is happiness, the noble ones say is suffering.” (SN35.136)

And that is, to bring it back to the topic, also the Buddha’s insight behind “I declare only suffering and its cessation”.

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Yes. Many people use the term “denotative meaning” instead of taking a “literal reading,” of a text because of the confusion. Then there is “connotative meaning,” usually taken to mean the suggested or implied meaning of a text. However, because of inter-textuality, what a text connotes is valued subjectively. Often attached to this are three considerations of the reader’s position: aligned, negotiated or oppositional. Usually we are expected to be able to identify and take all three positions in any “reading” of a “text” or image. That way we can demonstrate how we know what we’re doing and what we’re doing.

Hello Venerable! :slight_smile:

Agreed.

The Teacher said it again and again and again. “Saṅkhittena pañcupādānakkhandhā dukkhā.” It is literally the first noble truth. I’m not sure how you say otherwise. SN56.11, DN 22, DN 33, DN 15, MN 141, MN 44, MN 9, SN 22.103, SN 22.104, SN 22.22, Kd 1 and others.

Therefore, the context very much includes grasping as integral to the first noble truth. If you want to know more about the distinction between the five grasping aggregates that are defiled versus the undefiled mere aggregates you can find that spelled out too:

“Mendicants, I will teach you the five aggregates and the five grasping aggregates.

And what are the five aggregates?

Any kind of form at all—past, future, or present; internal or external; coarse or fine; inferior or superior; far or near: this is called the aggregate of form.

And what are the five grasping aggregates?

Any kind of form at all—past, future, or present; internal or external; coarse or fine; inferior or superior; far or near, which is accompanied by defilements and is prone to being grasped: this is called the aggregate of form connected with grasping.

SN 22.48

As you can see, I am not implying context that does not exist. I’m citing context that manifestly exists and is spelled out by the Teacher and whose distinction is made clear in sutta. Further, the second noble truth and the third are integrally related to craving and this context is also not implied or added by me, but is explicitly spelled out by the Teacher.

This context is important and the Teacher taught that it is inappropriate to remove grasping or somehow extract grasping from the first noble truth.

“But sir, is that grasping the exact same thing as the five grasping aggregates? Or is grasping one thing and the five grasping aggregates another?”

“Neither. Rather, the desire and greed for them is the grasping there.”
SN 22.82

It seems wise to assume the Teacher taught this for a reason and made a distinction for a beneficial reason between the five grasping aggregates and the mere aggregates. It seems wise to assume the Teacher meant what he said when he taught it is the five grasping aggregates rooted in desire and greed as suffering and not the mere aggregates. If you wish to take the Teacher literally here is a chance.

BTW, in those suttas above you won’t find ‘form’ so narrowly defined as you have it previously. Rather, the form aggregate is, “any kind of form at all.” You’ve added or implied the context where form is suffering is supposed to be understood as merely the experience of the physical body. Please cite the sutta which says this or implies this.

I’d also like to understand what you think the Teacher meant by citing the craving for non-existence over and over as one of the three types of craving in the second noble truth. It seems clear to me that you agree that craving for the continued existence of the aggregates is included in craving to be avoided. It is not clear to me that you (or @Jasudho) agree that craving for the non-existence of the aggregates is included in craving to be avoided. If you do agree that it is to be avoided can you or someone please explain what you understand craving for the non-existence of the aggregates to be? :pray:

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For me it seems most reasonable that it is possible to have full understanding, direct knowledge that the cessation of sensing, of feeling and perception, of sense-contact, is indeed the cessation of all burden. That moment reveals an unestablished empty egoless openess. It is known to be the end of suffering.

Seen from this perspective, if one knows this, a stream of vinnana’s, so the mere fact of feeling and sensing, is always a kind of burden. Coming with impact. Even without grasping. The mere fact of the (re-) arising of an embodied local perspective on the world (which is absent in cessation) comes with a burden.

Those who know this, know the cessation and arising of the world in this very life. I believe from a phenomenalogical view. I tend to believe that this all remains a perspective.

This cessation is not an absence, i believe. An absence does not know the cessation of the world nor the end of suffering.

But this way it makes sense to me…so not for all of you. (that is my experience:-)

And why do they say that all experience is suffering?

Hi,

Since you included me in your post, here are further reflections:

Your citation of SN22.48 does not negate that the aggregates are dukkha. The Buddha distinguishes the aggregates themselves (which only arise in the first place through ignorance and craving and, hence, are dukkha), from when there is active clinging to them during life.
They don’t have to clung to, as arahants experience the aggregates without clinging.
Do you see anything specifically said about whether either aspect is dukkha or not in the sutta?
In this sutta, the Buddha doesn’t directly mention dukkha at all – which makes sense when the aggregates with and without grasping are considered to be dukkha.

Same for SN22.82. Where does the Buddha directly address dukkha here? Instead, the sutta points to the conditional dependency of the aggregates and grasping. So how does this support the notion that the aggregates without grasping are dukkha-free?
Instead, because the aggregates are due to grasping (and can perpetuate grasping), they are dukkha.

The wish to escape from dukkha is a necessary desire on the Path. Otherwise, who would practice the Dhamma? See AN4.159.
This is different than ignorance-based craving for non-existence, (vibhava-taṇhā).

I think we agree that the Buddha-to-be set out to seek (desire) the end of rebirth and dukkha. Was there a problem with that?
He wasn’t craving self-extinction based on ignorance and didn’t teach this.
I’d offer that it’s important to distinguish between these kinds of desires.

:pray:

Yes, this means, i feel, that there is also form, feeling, etc that is not prone to being grasped.
It is not that all that is sensed causes lobha, dosa and moha to arise.
In other words, these defilements are not constant in an active way present. They arise and cease.
This also means, one must not think about a worldling as fundamentally deluded, greedy or hateful.
Not even think so about an animal, hell being, deva etc. …or…even me.
I know it is not easy

On the contrary, it draws a clear distinction between the grasping aggregates and the mere aggregates. It is the former which are equated as dukkha in the first noble truth and in sutta after sutta. I don’t think it is appropriate to negate this distinction - grasping - and the Teacher said as much in SN 22.82. Further, that distinction says clearly that it is grasping which leads to defilement with the clear implication that the non-grasped aggregates are free from defilement. This further reinforces the penetrative sutta AN 6.63 where the Teacher said that the world’s pretty things stay just as they are without one’s greedy intention. That sutta also says it is the grasping aggregates which are suffering in contrast to the mere aggregates.

I see a clear distinction being made between the grasped aggregates which are described in the first noble truth as suffering and the non-grasped aggregates which are by clear implication not to be equated with suffering. Further, the clear implication is that the non-grasped aggregates are not tainted or defiled and therefore it would be inappropriate to regard that which is not tainted or defiled as dukkha. Seems pretty straightforward.

Ah, but did you miss all the suttas referenced before where dukkha is expressly said to be the five grasping aggregates over and over; the first noble truth? The first noble truth does not say that the non-grasping aggregates are dukkha; rather it refers to the grasping aggregates. It is inappropriate to dismiss this distinction.

You seem to be studiously avoiding the distinction between the grasping aggregates and the non-grasping aggregates. The form aggregate is not found by reason of grasping, it is found by reason of the four primary elements.

“The four primary elements are the reason why the aggregate of form is found."
SN 22.82

Which again is defined by the Teacher as, “Any kind of form at all—past, future, or present; internal or external; coarse or fine; inferior or superior; far or near: this is called the aggregate of form.”

The Teacher does not seem to narrow the definition of form to the experience of the physical body as described in other places in this thread. Nor does he narrow it to only the physical body when conjoined with a mind. Those are both added context for which I’ve yet to see a citation to sutta where it is either stated or implied.

That presents a problem for those who hold that the five aggregates utterly cease with the paranibbana of an awakened being because it is evident that the form aggregate manifestly does not. The four primary elements remain with the paranibbana of an awakened being. They do not vanish or disappear from the phenomenal world.

Understanding that what ceases are the grasping aggregates, it is the problem which vanishes; not the mere aggregates. The world’s pretty things stay just as they are.

So you’ve said. However, I haven’t seen an answer for what you consider ignorance-based craving for the non-existence of the aggregates actually is. If it isn’t this wish to escape from dukkha, then what is it precisely? Is it to be avoided? Should one avoid craving for the non-existence of the aggregates? If so, then how do you define craving for the non-existence of the aggregates so as to avoid it? Given that it is included over and over amongst the three cravings that lead to dukkha it would seem pretty important to avoid it, right?

If we don’t ignore the distinction that the Teacher made between the grasping aggregates and the non-grasping aggregates it becomes trivial to define what “ignorance-based craving for the non-existence of the aggregates” actually is. It is the wish or craving for the mere aggregates to utterly cease in contrast to the grasping aggregates. It is impossible for the former to utterly cease. Craving for the impossible leads to suffering. On the other hand, wishing for the grasping aggregates to utterly cease can be accomplished. How? By giving up grasping and craving and understanding that the world’s pretty things stay just as they are. With the letting go and cessation of grasping and craving the grasping aggregates utterly cease. This doesn’t mean that the mere aggregates vanish; it means that the grasping after them and clinging to them has vanished and with it the dukkha that was dependent upon that grasping and craving.

:pray:

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But as has been shared many times, the aggregates arise from grasping and so are dukkha. Also, it was mentioned earlier about how the definition in the 1st NT is not about the aggregates being dukkha-free. Won’t repeat the points here.

Staying just as they are doesn’t mean they’re not fundamentally dukkha. It just points to their characteristics just as they are and they don’t have to be grasped. Where is the sutta does the Buddha say they’re not dukkha just as they are?
It seems like you’re looking for and “finding” what’s not there.

See above.

Sorry but this is not true. Form and the other aggregates as well as the six sense fields only arise in our experience as beings (as discussed earlier) through grasping. Hence, dukkha.
Again, this is not about the “outside” world or reality, whatever that may be.

Not for final nibbāna in which there are no sense fields and no aggregates. Agree?
If the aggregates are dukkha-free why aren’t they included in nibbāna? Again, you appear to be conflating what we infer to be external reality with what the Buddha taught as the All and the World, and the Path that leads to the cessation of all that.

Thanks for the convo.

:pray:

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Then you dispute what the Teacher said here:

“What is the cause, sir, what is the reason why the aggregate of form is found?

“The four primary elements are the reason why the aggregate of form is found.
SN 22.82

This is the description of why the mere aggregate of form is found. It is distinguished clearly from the grasping aggregate of form. Grasping is not mentioned.

Despite the paranibbana of numerous awakened ones the mere aggregate of form is still found. Mere form has not utterly ceased. Mere form continues and is found by reason of the conservation of matter and energy. The grasping aggregate of form ceases the moment that grasping is given up. Luckily, it is possible to give up grasping and craving.

I notice you have not answered what you consider “ignorance-based craving for the non-existence of the aggregates” actually is, but again thank you for the conversation.

:pray:

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Grasping is not mentioned because the context was pointing the four elements, as they were understood in the time of the Buddha, and to how the elements are impersonal aspects that combine to give rise to form in our experience.
At the time, there were those who took form and their bodies to be a true, lasting Self, (as in DN1).

By teaching how the four elements were selfless processes and aspects of existence that causally combined to manifest rūpa, the Buddha undercut these views.

This is again conflating what we infer about the outside world with the All and the World as taught by the Buddha for the sake of the Path.
That All or World is only what is experienced by humans through the six sense fields.

This doesn’t mean the Buddha denied an external reality. He taught about how some illnesses were not due to kamma and taught about how if kings behaved with virtue the lands would live in peace, (in DN, can’t recall which sutta).

But that outside reality cannot be directly experience or hence known.
So referring to the persistence of matter/energy or anything else with respect to the ending of all conditional experiences and all “things” in parinibbāna doesn’t align the with Buddha’s teachings that nibbāna is utterly free of all conditions and free of all dukkha.

You may wish to recall a sutta cited earlier: AN10.95:
" “Uttiya, I teach my disciples from my own insight in order to purify sentient beings, to get past sorrow and crying, to make an end of pain and sadness, to end the cycle of suffering, and to realize extinguishment.”

“But when Master Gotama teaches in this way, is the whole world saved, or half, or a third?” But when he said this, the Buddha kept silent."

"…it’s not the Realized One’s concern whether the whole world is saved by this, or half, or a third. But the Realized One knows that whoever is saved from the world—whether in the past, the future, or the present—all have given up the five hindrances, corruptions of the heart that weaken wisdom. They have firmly established their mind in the four kinds of mindfulness meditation. And they have truly developed the seven awakening factors. That’s how they’re saved from the world, in the past, future, or present. Uttiya, you were just asking the Buddha the same question as before in a different way. That’s why he didn’t answer.”

It’s about our internal experiences and using them for practicing the Path, the letting go of greed, anger, and ignorance → nibbāna.

I’ll offer you the final word.
After that, I think we’ve gone over the same territory a few times. :slightly_smiling_face:

:pray:

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But grasping was mentioned in that sutta! Just not in the part where you want it to be mentioned: in indicating what reason that mere form is found. In fact, it was mentioned just before the place you want it to be mentioned but was not. :slight_smile:

Nope, it is not so conflating. It is manifestly in the experience of humans through the six sense fields that the mere form aggregate has not vanished and utterly ceased with anyone’s paranibbana. Thus, it is just manifestly not true that the form aggregate - as defined by the Teacher - has vanished or utterly ceased with the awakening of any being. We know this precisely through experience.

That is very gracious of you. Thank you once again for the gracious and illuminating conversation. :pray:

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But you do not accept that freedom from suffering can be known or experienced because you teach that any feeling, any perception, any vinnana is intrinsically suffering. And besides this there is nothing according your beliefsystem. So, the end of suffering is mere a prospect. One delights in a prospect.
The prospect of ceasing to exist as lifestream with nothing remaining.

Dhamma is the big eliminator, not only of suffering but of life of all lifetstreams. Dhamma, in your view, has only one goal, to bring all life to an end. The life of humans, deva’s, animals…etc. That is, apparantly the great worth of Buddha-Dhamma, and the blessing that a Buddha comes in this world. To let all lifeforms cease without anything remaining.

Oke…no…Green…not oke :slight_smile:

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What you call “lifeforms” is seen to be dukkha in the 4NTs and DO.

SN56.11:
" Now this is the noble truth of suffering. Rebirth is suffering; old age is suffering; illness is suffering; death is suffering; association with the disliked is suffering; separation from the liked is suffering; not getting what you wish for is suffering. In brief, the five grasping aggregates are suffering.
This means “lifeforms”, “beings,” in any realm of existence.

Now this is the noble truth of the origin of suffering. It’s the craving that leads to future lives, mixed up with relishing and greed, taking pleasure wherever it lands. That is, craving for sensual pleasures, craving to continue existence, and craving to end existence.

Now this is the noble truth of the cessation of suffering. It’s the fading away and cessation of that very same craving with nothing left over; giving it away, letting it go, releasing it, and not clinging to it."

Of course, while we’re alive we care for other beings and help them when we can. As did the Buddha.

But samsāra, transmigrating endlessly through conditional existences, cannot be dukkha-free.
But the Buddha said his teachings lead to the complete freedom from dukkha, so the ceasing of all conditions is just the ceasing of dukkha.

Hi, busy with things and don’t have time to go into this, but I think this can be opened up a bit for questioning. Buddha describes contact as a flayed cow

And how should you regard contact as fuel? Kathañca, bhikkhave, phassāhāro daṭṭhabbo?
Suppose there was a flayed cow. If she stands by a wall, the creatures on the wall bite her. Seyyathāpi, bhikkhave, gāvī niccammā kuṭṭañce nissāya tiṭṭheyya. Ye kuṭṭanissitā pāṇā te naṁ khādeyyuṁ.
If she stands under a tree, the creatures in the tree bite her. Rukkhañce nissāya tiṭṭheyya, ye rukkhanissitā pāṇā te naṁ khādeyyuṁ.
If she stands in some water, the creatures in the water bite her. Udakañce nissāya tiṭṭheyya, ye udakanissitā pāṇā te naṁ khādeyyuṁ.
If she stands in the open, the creatures in the open bite her. Ākāsañce nissāya tiṭṭheyya, ye ākāsanissitā pāṇā te naṁ khādeyyuṁ.
Wherever that flayed cow stands, the creatures there would bite her. Yaṁ yadeva hi sā, bhikkhave, gāvī niccammā nissāya tiṭṭheyya, ye tannissitā pāṇā te naṁ khādeyyuṁ.
I say that this is how you should regard contact as fuel. Evameva khvāhaṁ, bhikkhave, ‘phassāhāro daṭṭhabbo’ti vadāmi.
When contact as fuel is completely understood, the three feelings are completely understood. Phasse, bhikkhave, āhāre pariññāte tisso vedanā pariññātā honti.
When the three feelings are completely understood, a noble disciple has nothing further to do, I say. Tīsu vedanāsu pariññātāsu ariyasāvakassa natthi kiñci uttarikaraṇīyanti vadāmi. SN 12.63

Setting aside all these questions of entropy, we could fairly consider that contact means direct experience. The West has a problem with something called the aporia, or perceptual gap. This problem may be because we didn’t properly figure feeling (vedana) into our understanding. And our doing that may come from our long-standing Platonic distrust of the senses. This is one reason why I choose to refer to vedana as affect (from Spinoza - the power to affect and be affected: which is denoted as a power-quality that is characterized as an intensity).
I think Buddha is definitely saying that we are affected by contact in a painful way. And we are situated in it. For a quick swipe, have a look at Upādānaparipavattasutta SN 22.56.

Hi,

Thanks for your post.

I agree, but in the realm of the six sense fields, in which there are the sensed and mind-constructed versions of outside reality manifesting as cows, feelings, etc.
Again, for this I’m relying on SN35.23 and others.

SN22.56, imo, is still consistent with contact and all other experiences as being directly known/experienced only by consciousness via the other senses, (although of course "mind-consciousness is one of the senses).

I think the reason this is important is that the Buddha’s teachings about the All and the World being within the sense fields of humans is that we have leverage to skillfully work with all these conditions – because they’re within the domain of our own mind-experiences, so to speak.

On the other hand, if the world “out there” had to be worked with to the point of nirodha, how could we ever do this?

Just a few quick thoughts and not philosophically rigorous. But I think in line with the suttas.

Happy to hear back regarding your thoughts. :slightly_smiling_face:

It’s a sense. Going back to the Platonic aversion to the senses and his establishment of a transcendental ideal.

This I will have to come back to, because I am in the middle of a collecting of things in relation to this specifically. But it is important to keep in mind that sense consciousness appears to be - at first - conscious of vedana. There is arising, surely, but it is affective - so that is to say consciousness itself is affective.

But does this apply to the suttas? In all circumstances?
What about viññānasota in DN15?
For example, what about when the five senses cease in jhana and/or the formless attainments?

Looking forward to hearing back when you can do so.

Well the five senses don’t include the mind, but that doesn’t preclude it from still being held as a sense. Myself I don’t think it’s possible to entertain the idea of formless as an ayatana unless formlessness falls under the category dhamma (phenomena - which also means event. Probably the dominant meaning of phenomena is event). The mind has its own field to graze upon, and that field is dhamma.

So stop here, because this is what I am collecting upon. Dhamma carries both an inner and outer connotation. So the question is - clarity (sattva) - in Indian meditative and metaphysical traditions that is only available “inside” - the purusa is pure consciousness and there is a way to go through “layers” of phenomenal consciousness, including I making (ahamkara) to realize it. With that there is moksa. This isn’t an isolated, reductive understanding. It’s total unenfoldment. The objective is realizing “thou art that” - atman is One with Brahman. (There are different languages - the cross over between purusa and atman is not exact.)

Advaita Vedanta completely dismisses the phenomenal world. It is a projection of Brahman (MAYA) and is an illusion. I don’t know what happened there for Western people to think that MAYA is a Buddhist concept, but I come across that belief often. This is not the case. Buddhism would not be able to withstand philosophical scrutiny if this were to be the case.

So, the point being without going into this ad infinitum practically, what I see Buddha as saying is that we have the foundation to trust that what we can come to is, in effect, reality. Obviously there are lots of problems with the senses. He identifies that, but within that capacity - depending upon that - we can come into harmony (the operative word being here that most ancient of ancient intuitions - RTA). WHICH, BTW is the Goddess. Aditi is RTA. And to find the full formulation of her - you will be spending a very long time pouring over at least the Rgveda and Atharvaveda (which is - PROFANE - and not fun to read).

It’s never really been emphasized but “they” all worship the goddess. It’s often considered the “tantric” side or private side of what goes on.

Hi! :slight_smile:

It is commonly understood that the word upādāna­khandha has multiple meanings, dependent on context. You are understanding it only as khandhas which are currently clung to or grasped, which is true in some contexts. But in other contexts, such as the truth on suffering, it means khandhas which are the result of clinging or grasping (in a past life). (I.e., the compound contains an ablative case, causal relation, “the aggregates due to grasping”.) Venerable Bodhi says about this, in his introduction to SN22: “Clinging to the five aggregates in this existence brings forth a new birth and thus the reappearance of the five aggregates in the next existence.” Venerable Sujato likewise notes in his intro to the Linked Discourses: “They are the product of grasping in the sense that attachments in past lives have given rise to the aggregates in this life.” This sense of upādāna­khandhas is known to the commentaries as * upādinna­khandhas*, ‘khandhas which were clung to/grasped’ (or, as I prefer, ‘taken up’).

There are texts which indicate the enlightened ones still have the upādāna­khandhas, where this sense is by far the easiest, if not only, way to interpret the term. For example, SN22.122–123 say even enlightened ones should still see the upādāna­khandhas as suffering. MN112 says the enlightened mind is liberated by not grasping/clinging to the upādāna­khandhas. SN22.85 similarly says: "These five aggregates of clinging, to which he does not become engaged and to which he does not cling.” Here it surely can’t mean ‘khandhas which are currently clung to’.

That in the first noble truth it also means khandhas which are the result of grasping, is probably most clearly illustrated by SN56.14, which says: “And what, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of suffering? It should be said: the six internal sense bases.” There is no mention of clinging here. It simply says the six senses themselves are suffering. Compare this text with the preceding one, SN56.13, which instead talks of the five upādāna­khandhas. Dhp202 also says, without any mention of clinging: “There is no suffering like the aspects of existence.” Thag19.1 likewise: “Reflect rationally on the aggregates as suffering”, without referring upādāna. Similar at Thig16.1. See also SN22.22 which once says the upādāna­khandhas are a burden (i.e. suffering), and once that the “mere” khandhas are a burden. Here the two words are used synonymously.

It doesn’t say that, though. If anything, the upadana-khandhas in this sutta are a subset of the khandhas as a whole, because the latter aren’t described as “without grasping”. Bhikkhu Bodhi explained this extensively in an article on the sutta, the name of which I can’t remember.

There are so many contexts that imply things to be suffering without implying grasping or other defilements, I almost wouldn’t know where to start. But a good one is SN36.11, which says, "Suffering includes whatever is felt.” Whatever is felt means all feelings, whether grasped or not. To read this in any other way seems overly inferential. The Buddha even says directly afterwards, “when I said this I was referring to the impermanence of conditions”. That is, all feelings should be seen as suffering because of their inherent impermanence, not because of grasping.

There are also suttas like SN22.30, which says: “The cessation, settling, and ending of form is the cessation of suffering, the settling of diseases, and the ending of old age and death.” You would have to read this as “the ending form that’s grasped to, is the cessation of suffering”, which seems a very awkward way to read it. Also, since after enlightenment there still is disease, old age and death, how is the end grasping the end of these things? It would again have to be taken very non-literally, if anything.

I’d also like to understand what you think the Teacher meant by citing the craving for non-existence

Craving for nonexistence of the aggregates also needs to be abandoned, even if you see them as suffering, because all craving comes from a sense of self. Enlightened ones are equanimous about suffering.

I’ll leave the details on the “BTW” on form, because it seems tangential, and, indeed, no sutta explains it directly, so it would take me a while to do so. Let’s for sake of argument agree that rūpa only means physical body and not also awareness of certain things, including the body. You say it implies, “the body, when grasped, is suffering”. I would then say it implies something like, “the body, when aware of, is suffering” or “the body always results in suffering”. This seems to be much less presumptive to me. SN22.79 explains by means of a pun: “And why do you call it form (rūpa)? It’s hurt (ruppati); that’s why it’s called ‘form’. Hurt by what? Hurt by cold, heat, hunger, and thirst, and hurt by the touch of flies, mosquitoes, wind, sun, and reptiles.” It doesn’t say it’s hurt by grasping. (Other translators translate ruppati non-literally as ‘deformed’ in an attempt to show the pun in English, but that misses a lot of the meaning.) Likewise, MN74 says that the body should be seen as suffering, as a disease, as a tumour, as a dart, as a calamity, as an affliction, for it is of the nature to decay, not because we attach to it.

And to get back to the topic, when SN5.10 says: “This is just a bunch of created things (saṅkhāras). There exists no being as such. […] It is only suffering that comes to be, suffering that exists and vanishes.” If suffering equals grasping, is it just grasping that comes to be and vanishes?? Are saṅkharas just grasping?

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