The text SN 45.28 does not have a corresponding SA counterpart. Also, the SN text indicates only the Pali term, “sattahaṅgehi”, with no any content. What are the seven factors in the sutta?
Do you mean this content?
And what is noble right immersion with its vital conditions and its prerequisites?
There are right view, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, and right mindfulness.
katamo ca, bhikkhave, ariyo sammāsamādhi saupaniso saparikkhāro? seyyathidaṃ — sammādiṭṭhi … pe … sammāsati.
This is because EBTs, such as the four Agamas/Nikayas, were not established at once in a complete form in the early Buddhist council. They were gradually expanded in the sequence SA/SN, MA/MN, DA/DN, EA/AN, of which SA/SN was the foundation, according to Ven. Yinshun (see pp. 9-11 in Choong Mun-keat’s Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism).
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Thanks. Sorry, I was wrongly reading the textual content:
"At Savatthī. “Bhikkhus, I will teach you noble right concentration with its supports and its accessories. Listen to that….
“And what, bhikkhus, is noble right concentration with its supports and its accessories? There are: right view … right mindfulness. The one-pointedness of mind equipped with these seven factors is called noble right concentration ‘with its supports,’ and also ‘with its accessories.’” "
The sutta, SN 45.28 (no SA counterpart) is edited in SN 45. Magga, i.e. regarding the collection of the teaching/practice of the noble eightfold path.
In this context, the term cittassa ekaggatā “one-pointedness of mind”, indicated in the sutta (SN 45.28), refers to the four jhanas (sammasamadhi).
So, jhana (samadhi) is needed for the cessation of dukkha (nibbana), according to SN/SA.
What happens first hearing the sound or poping out of jhana ?
And remember this is not even jhana this is imperturbable concentration
What do you think the difference between pertubable and impertubable concentration is ?
So when you fall say from dimension of infinite space due to hearing sound where will you fall to fourth jhana or to non jhana ?
You need to change your title to “I don’t think (hard)jhana is needed to attain nibbana” imo because currently title and contents don’t match especially the late replies
I don’t think dessert is needed to complete a meal, but it can make it more enjoyable.
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Alright I have abandoned my wrong view that let alone hard jhana not even easy jhana is needed to attain nibbana so only ekaggata is needed to attain nibbana but I realize that’s wrong thanks for all 
who gives me knowledge in this thread
But I still think hard jhana is not needed to attain nibbana so only ekaggata and easy jhana that’s needed to attain nibbana but I can be wrong again for the second time so I have revised the title
Disagreement don’t arise anger in me because I never cling to any view I am always open to any view
I think jhana should be hard enough that you crave it and abandon sensuality but I don’t know how hard is “hard” here
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I think you need to create a separate topic
No sir, previously I thought that both easy jhana and hard jhana are not needed to attain nibbana but now I think that only hard jhana that is not needed to attain nibbana
@Sai18ram, maybe too soon to give it up?
I don’t know if you ever read this document “A Study of Sukkhavipassaka in Pāli Buddhism” by Tzungkuen Wen.
As for me, the words of the ancient theras-commentators are very valuable, worthy of serious consideration.
Abstract
This thesis aims to explore the doctrine of sukkhavipassaka (“dry-insight practitioner”) in Pāli Buddhism. The focus of the thesis is to utilize the canonical and commentarial sources of the various Buddhist schools to evaluate the position of this doctrine in the history of early Buddhism. Since the early 20th century the sukkhavipassaka doctrine and its practice have been reemphasized by eminent meditation monks in Burma, and later they spread to other Buddhist countries in Asia and beyond. Some scholars, nevertheless, have cast doubts on the authenticity of the sukkhavipassaka doctrine. They argue that it is a later development, not recorded in the Pāli Nikāyas since the form-sphere jhāna (Skt. dhyāna) is always necessary for the realization of arahantship, or even for stream-entry, the first stage of enlightenment.
The first part of this thesis investigates the concept of the sukkhavipassaka in the four Nikāyas. Many suttas in the Pāli Nikāyas imply an acknowledgement of noble beings who lack form-sphere jhānas; also many meditative techniques described in the suttas can be practised in the so-called dryinsight way. However, it is in the Pāli commentarial literature, which is discussed in the second part of this thesis that the sukkhavipassaka doctrine appears in a full-fledged form. The Pāli commentaries not only specify the concentration that dry-insight practitioners use to develop insight knowledge, but also reveal the advantages and disadvantages of the dry-insight meditative approach. In the third part of this thesis, the canonical and commentarial materials related to the Susīma Sutta which are preserved in schools other than the Theravāda are investigated. This thesis reveals that the concept of arahants who lack the first form-sphere jhāna is accepted not only by the Theravāda but also by the Sarvāstivāda, the *Satyasiddhisāstra, and the Yogacārabhūmiśāstra. Since various Buddhist schools in India unanimously advocate the idea that there are arahants who have not achieved the form-sphere jhāna, this research concludes that the dry-insight meditative approach and dry-insight arahants are not an invention by Theravādin commentators, but a common heritage which was most probably handed down from the time of the Buddha and then shared by various Buddhist schools.
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That’s interesting
Who are these arahants without jhana ?
Perhaps I were right that both easy jhana and hard jhana are not needed to attain nibbana
and this passage from “A Study of Sukkhavipassaka in Pāli Buddhism” by Tzungkuen Wen (p. 200)
The Susīma Sutta of Saṃyutta-nikāya (SN 12:70) has sometimes been viewed as evidence for the existence of wisdom-liberated arahants who do not obtain any form-sphere jhāna. However, some scholars have highlighted that the Pāli commentary rather than the Susīma sutta proper supports the existence of such arahants since the sutta confirms only that one can attain arahantship without the five mundane super knowledges (abhiññās) and four formless jhānas; no reference is given to the form-sphere jhānas. Nevertheless, the Sarvāstivāda’s version of the Susīma Sutta clearly documents the arahants who lack form-sphere jhānas, and thus it corresponds to the Pāli commentarial explanations on the Susīma Sutta given by Buddhaghosa.
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What language Is the sarvastivada version in ?
It depends on the time period and region. Early on, their texts were in vernacular languages like Prakrit or Central Asian languages depending on the region. Later, maybe beyond 500 CE (a guess, language history experts will have better dates), Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit became more common, and even later texts became fully Sanskritized. Apparently, there was initially a prohibition against using Sanskrit based on a scriptural passage, but it eventually was discarded.
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I don’t thinkg (hard) jhana is needed…
If so, @Sai18ram, will you then also be fine when the Buddha asks you:
SN35.88:15.1: “But if they do take your life with a sharp knife, what will you think of them then?”
SN35.88:16.1: “If they take my life with a sharp knife, I’ll think:
SN35.88:16.2: ‘There are disciples of the Buddha who looked for someone to assist with slitting their wrists because they were horrified, repelled, and disgusted with the body and with life. And I have found this without looking!’
SN35.88:16.3: That’s what I’ll think, Blessed One.
SN35.88:16.4: That’s what I’ll think, Holy One.”
If not, then perhaps jhana would help.
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I have to disagree with you here that “there’s no other way around it” because there are many ways around to attain to non-returner.
(1) Be clear that just Jhannas alone are not enough for one to attain to non-returner and one is still considered as “uneducated ordinary person / assutavatā puthujja.”
" …a mendicant, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. They enjoy it and like it and find it satisfying. If they abide in that, are committed to it, and meditate on it often without losing it, when they die they’re reborn in the company of the gods of Brahmā’s Host. The lifespan of the gods of Brahma’s Host is one eon. An ordinary person stays there until the lifespan of those gods is spent, then they go to hell or the animal realm or the ghost realm. But a disciple of the Buddha stays there until the lifespan of those gods is spent, then they’re extinguished in that very life. This is the difference between an educated noble disciple and an uneducated ordinary person, that is, when there is a place of rebirth."
AN4.123 SuttaCentral
One will need Jhannas + see impermanent to end of defilement or at least to attain to non-returner.
“…a person, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption … They contemplate the phenomena there—included in form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness—as impermanent, as suffering, as diseased, as an abscess, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien, as falling apart, as empty, as not-self. When their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in the company of the gods of the pure abodes. This rebirth is not shared with ordinary people.”
AN4.124 SuttaCentral
‘The first absorption is a basis for ending the defilements.’ That’s what I said, but why did I say it? Take a mendicant who, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption. They contemplate the phenomena there—included in form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness—as impermanent, as suffering, as diseased, as an abscess, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien, as falling apart, as empty, as not-self. They turn their mind away from those things, and apply it to the deathless: ‘This is peaceful; this is sublime—that is, the stilling of all activities, the letting go of all attachments, the ending of craving, fading away, cessation, extinguishment.’ Abiding in that they attain the ending of defilements. If they don’t attain the ending of defilements, with the ending of the five lower fetters they’re reborn spontaneously, because of their passion and love for that meditation. They are extinguished there, and are not liable to return from that world. "
AN9.36 SuttaCentral
(2) One who’s practicing a heart full of love, compassion, rejoicing, and equanimity + seeing impermanence can also attain to non-returner.
“a person meditates spreading a heart full of love (compassion, rejoicing, and equanimity) to one direction, and to the second, and to the third, and to the fourth. In the same way above, below, across, everywhere, all around, they spread a heart full of love to the whole world—abundant, expansive, limitless, free of enmity and ill will. They contemplate the phenomena there—included in form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness—as impermanent, as suffering, as diseased, as an abscess, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien, as falling apart, as empty, as not-self. When their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in the company of the gods of the pure abodes. This rebirth is not shared with ordinary people”.
AN4.126 SuttaCentral
(3) One who’s practicing the other progressive meditations such as the dimension of infinite space, the dimension of infinite consciousness, the dimension of nothingness + seeing impermanence can also attain to non-returner. AN9.36 SuttaCentral
(4) One who has “faith, conscience, prudence, energy, and wisdom regarding skillful qualities” + ending of the five lower fetters can also attain to non-returner.
And what kind of person rises up then finds a footing? It’s the kind of person who, rising up, thinks: ‘It’s good to have faith, conscience, prudence, energy, and wisdom regarding skillful qualities.’ With the ending of the five lower fetters they’re reborn spontaneously. They are extinguished there, and are not liable to return from that world. This kind of person rises up then finds a footing.
AN7.15 SuttaCentral
(5) Once how’s observing impermanence + ending five lower fetters can also attain to non-returner
Next, take a person who meditates observing impermanence in all conditions. With the ending of the five lower fetters they’re extinguished between one life and the next. …
With the ending of the five lower fetters they’re extinguished upon landing. …
With the ending of the five lower fetters they’re extinguished without extra effort. …
With the ending of the five lower fetters they’re extinguished with extra effort. …
With the ending of the five lower fetters they head upstream, going to the Akaniṭṭha realm. This is the seventh person.
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Your analysis is deep, thanks for it
Is there a way to be an arahant besides jhana ?