There are thousands of EBT’s in the nikayas and agamas, and we can’t simply take the contents of one text and presume it is authoritative, and apply whatever is in that text to all of early Buddhism. Each text and each statement needs to be considered within the larger context of EBT’s…
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The text does not say “jhana is not necessary to attain nibbana”
The text does not say “buddha” says that “jhana is not necessary to attain nibbana”?
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Dear Sai18ram,
You said…
But you quoted…
and…
It means that cittassa ekaggatā is good, but only if cittassa ekaggatā is parikkhatā by another 7 right factors, then you can walk to the end. So immersing yourself in a PC game, for example, is not the way to reach nibbāna, even strong enought 
… and of course cittassa ekaggatā is not sammāsamādhi.
For the question of the need of jhāna to attain nibbāna, maybe the problem is that we are defining jhāna too differently. For some it is too difficult to achieve, not because the jhāna itself is difficult, but that what they think is that the jhāna is indeed very difficult. Whereas the jhāna commonly mentioned in the suttas is attainable … when the bodhisatta was a boy, by the bhikkhus after every alms *… Maybe people with such a view should practice the Buddha’s instructions as described in the suttas, before negating the role of jhāna?
It’s to much for my first dhamma post in this great dhamma resource.
You are the best! Suttacentral Development Team, thank you!
*“They get the four absorptions—blissful meditations in the present life that belong to the higher mind—when they want, without trouble or difficulty” - MN119
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Cittasa ekaggata + 7 factors is sammasamadhi
Of course cittasa ekaggata alone is not sammasamadhi
Ekaggata alone is samadhi but to have sammasamadhi you need to have the 7 factors too
Buddha is very explicit in saying that ekaggata is samadhi and cittasa ekaggata + 7 factors is sammasamadhi
Buddha said with jhana you can attain nibbana but it’s not the only way there is other way and it’s cittasa ekaggata + 7 factors
I dunno how deeply into the dry insight schools you are, sometimes, it’s very hard to put it across to people who are too deep. If that’s the case, maybe it’s good to stop, cause quarrels disturbs the peace of the mind.
You didn’t address the post I made: I don't think (hard)jhana is needed to attain nibbana - #12 by NgXinZhao
That the Buddha was very clear about needing the Jhanas to attain to non-returner, and there’s no other way around it.
It’s the view of Jhana school people that the one pointedness of mind with 7 other factors is just another way to say Jhanas. They have to be combined together, like blind men touching elephant, so we can’t just say only the head (jhanas) is needed for it to be called elephant (samma samadhi), or only the tail (one pointedness and 7 other factors) is needed.
Do you mean jhana is not samadhi (which is ekaggata), but sammasamadhi is cittasa ekaggata + 7 factors, and sammasamadhi is jhana and also ekaggata, but samadhi is not jhana?
And because of these terms being used, you conclude that “jhana is not necessary to attain nibbana”?
jhana is samadhi
Ekaggata is samadhi
Jhana is sammasamadhi
Ekaggata + 7 factors is sammasamadhi
samadhi is jhana or ekaggata
Sammasamadhi is jhana or (ekaggata + the 7 factors)
So ekaggata + 7 factors is enough to attain nibbana since it’s sammasamadhi there’s no need for jhana
I am sorry for being unclear 
You have a great support from the famous bhikkhu 
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Thanks, if bhante analayo can agree with me I consider that as my fortune, my good kammas, that’s for my welfare and happiness
You are bringing happiness to me, so nice of you sir, thanks so much
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Do share the properly full paragraph. The sentence you left out is quite important. I don’t understand the conclusion in light of all these, anyway, need to read the book and their various citation to get it.
The chapter concludes with a brief but masterful parsing of well-known controversies about jhāna in which Ven. Anālayo disputes both the Mahasi “vipassanā-jhānas” and contemporary Western views that relatively light levels of concentration are sufficient for liberating insight. At the very end he shares one of his most striking recent findings, namely that “right” concentration refers not to mastery of the four jhānas but to samadhi in balance with the other 7 path factors, along with a rejection of the claim that jhanic mastery is required for stream entry.
But Analayo nowhere says that you don’t need jhana to attain nibbana. He just says you don’t need jhana to attain stream entry.
It’s worth quoting Analayo in full from the book:
16. ABSORPTION
Another aspect of the teaching of vipassanā meditation relates to concentration. A stream enterer is endowed with the factors of the noble eightfold path (translated by Bodhi 2000: 1793), including right concentration. Since one type of definition of “right concentration” lists the four absorptions (jhāna), this can give the impression that absorptive abilities are required for reaching even the first level of awakening.
The question of the supposed necessity of absorptive abilities for stream entry became a major controversy with the large-scale spread of vipassanā meditation. The type of vipassanā meditation taught by Mahāsi Sayādaw does not allocate time to the formal cultivation of mental tranquility. This left considerable room for criticism. Ostensibly as a way to forestall further criticism, Mahāsi Sayādaw and his disciples baptized experiences of insight meditation as a form of absorption, presented as being a “vipassanā-jhāna” (Anālayo 2020a).
This apparently polemical move appears to have set a precedent for a reinterpretation of the significance of absorption among Theravāda meditation practitioners, even leading to the idea that absorption in itself is productive of insight (Arbel 2017). Such an assumption is not an accurate reflection of the nature and purpose of absorption attainment described in the early discourses (Anālayo 2017c: 109–23 and 2020a).
Another related strand of reinterpretation takes the term jhāna, “absorption,” to refer to experiences within easy reach of any practitioner, rather than requiring a high level of meditative expertise. Such assumptions also stand in contrast to the indications that can be gleaned from the early discourses, where the attainment of absorption appears to correspond to profound concentrative experiences that require considerable meditative training (Anālayo 2017c: 123–50 and 2019j).
A case in point is a description of the Buddha’s own prolonged struggle with various obstructions to the attainment of the first absorption, which he related to his monastic disciple Anuruddha, who had similar problems (translated by Ñāṇamoli 1995/2005: 1012). Anuruddha features in the list of eminent monastic disciples as outstanding for clairvoyance, which requires a high degree of concentrative ability. Another discourse reports that the Buddha’s own eventual mastery of absorption was such that he was able to enter each of these at will in ascending and descending order even while being on the verge of passing away (translated by Walshe 1987: 271 and Bodhi 2000: 251). For the Buddha and this outstanding disciple to have to struggle initially to attain and stabilize even just the first absorption, in spite of their evident abilities attested by their later meditative mastery, makes it fairly obvious that in the thought-world of the early discourses the term jhāna indeed stood for profound meditative experiences.
Besides, a comparative study of references to “right concentration” in the early discourses brings to light that an equation with the attainment of the four absorptions does not seem to reflect the earliest stages in defining this particular path factor (Anālayo 2019b). The original idea of what makes concentration “right” appears to have been rather the need to cultivate it in collaboration with the other seven path factors. Of particular importance here is right view. In fact, mere attainment of absorption in the absence of right view would hardly qualify as being the path factor of right concentration.
This in turn makes it fair to conclude that the attainment of stream entry does not require the cultivation of absorptive abilities. In fact, some reports of stream entry attainment in Pāli discourses involve persons who may not have meditated at all previously, let alone been proficient in absorption (Anālayo 2003: 80). From this viewpoint, there would have been no need to invent “vipassanā-jhānas,” with its apparent repercussions to fuel attempts to authenticate lightly concentrated meditation experiences by applying to them the prestigious label of jhāna.
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Thank you for quoting.
It is the idea that I think can be found support from Ven. Anālayo … (highlighted).
Actually…
(highlights are mine)
Indeed, he doesn’t say that jhāna is not needed for attain nibbāna, so I am sorry for not being completely accurate, but he said:
So why does one need jhāna if one already has right concentration? Or am I missing something while reading your quote?
(I don’t say that I support @Sai18ram’s statement )
Because numerous passages from the canon say otherwise, define sammasamadhi as the jhanas (D22.21, M141.23-31, S45.8) and have the Buddha going through the jhanas before reaching awakening. You can’t ignore those passages when you are interpreting the other passages which define sammasamadhi.
The passage which was shared by NgXinZhao above is a particularly clear statement of the necessity of jhana for nibbana.
Because even though…
but the stream enterer needs to work on the remaining fetters by developing the Path yet further in order to attain nibbana…
SN45.180
“Mendicants, there are five higher fetters. 1.2What five? 1.3Desire for rebirth in the realm of luminous form, desire for rebirth in the formless realm, conceit, restlessness, and ignorance. 1.4These are the five higher fetters.1.5The noble eightfold path should be developed for the direct knowledge, complete understanding, finishing, and giving up of these five higher fetters.
And while it might be possible to work on the two remaining lower fetters without jhana, the work on the fetters of desire for rebirth in the realm of luminous form / formless realm will require at least a passing familiarity with those realms, seeing them as undesirable and letting them go… such experience requires deep states of meditation IMO- hence Jhana.
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According to Analayo, in his book on Satipatthana (2006)
several discourses allow for full awakening based “only” on the ability to attain the first absorption. This suggests that even the first absorption may be sufficient, in terms of concentrative ability, to enable the breakthrough to full awakening. p. 73
A IV 422 speaks of realizing the destruction of the influxes based on the first jhāna; cf.also M I 350; M I 435; and A V 343
Of course, this is not an easy feat, for even the first jhana is a pretty deep and difficult state to reach,
The latter assumption stands in contradiction to the commentarial presentation, which describes in detail the stages of development prior to absorption. These sources indicate that to attain the first absorption a considerable amount of meditative development is required. Although references to this preliminary development appear only obliquely in the discourses, in one instance at least, the Upakkilesa Sutta, the Buddha gave a detailed account of his own struggle to attain the first absorption. This passage leaves no doubt that the Buddha himself encountered considerable difficulty when he attempted to attain the first absorption, even though in his early youth he had already once experienced it.The Upakkilesa Sutta is addressed to Anuruddha and a group of monks who were evidently in similar difficulties. On another occasion the Buddha also had to assist Moggallãna to attain the first absorption. It is noteworthy that Anuruddha and Moggallãna, who both later excelled all other disciples with their concentrative powers, needed the Buddha’s personal intervention to attain “merely” the first absorption.
These examples suggest that the attainment of the first absorption requires a considerable degree of meditative proficiency. According to the discourses, one who has entered the first absorption is no longer able to speak. This would not apply if the first absorption were merely a state of calm mental reflection. Not only speech, but also hearing does not occur during the deeper stages of absorption; in fact, sound is a major obstacle to attaining the first absorption. The experience of the first absorption is an “unworldly”experience; it constitutes another world in the psychological and the cosmological sense. To attain the first absorption is to reach a “superbly extraordinary state”. Already the first absorption “blind-folds” Mãra, since on entering this state one goes beyond the range of Mãra’s vision. These passages support an understanding of the first absorption as a deeply absorbed state of mind, beyond mere reflection and conceptual thought.
Analayo (2006) pp. 76-78
He also discusses the very topic of this thread further on, it really merits a full quote since it dispels the idea jhana is not needed for nibbana quite well:
Countless discourses recommend the development of concentration as an essential factor for “knowing things as they really are”. Concentration is a requirement for full awakening, and this concentration has to be “right” concentration. These specifications recommend absorption concentration as a requisite for full awakening. However, the question might be asked if the same is also required for stream-entry. Although, owing to the powerful impact of experiencing Nibbãna at stream-entry, the concentrative unification of one’s mind (cittassekaggatã) will momentarily reach a level comparable to absorption, how far does this require the previous development of absorption with a calmness object of meditation?
The qualities listed in the discourses as essential for the realization of stream-entry do not stipulate the ability to attain absorption. Nor are such abilities mentioned in the descriptions of the qualities that are characteristic of a stream-enterer subsequent to realization.
According to the discourses, what is a necessary condition for being able to gain stream-entry is a state of mind completely free from the five hindrances. Although a convenient way to remove the hindrances is the development of absorption, this is not the only way to do so. According to a discourse in the Itivuttaka, the hindrances can also be removed and the mind become concentrated even during walking meditation, a posture not suitable for attaining absorption. In fact, another passage shows that the hindrances can be temporarily absent even outside the context of formal meditation, such as when one is listening to the Dhamma.
This alternative is corroborated by a fair number of the attainments of stream-entry recorded in the discourses where the person in question might not even have meditated regularly in this life, much less be able to attain absorption. Yet these reports invariably mention the removal of the hindrances previous to the arising of in-sight. In all these instances, the hindrances were removed as a result of attentively listening to the gradual instructions given by the Buddha.
In fact, a substantial number of well-known modern meditation teachers base their teachings on the dispensability of absorption abilities for the realization of stream-entry. According to them, for the mind to become momentarily “absorbed” in the experience of Nibbãnaat stream-entry, the ability to attain mundane absorption is not a necessary requirement.
The issue at question becomes even clearer when the next stage of awakening is considered, that of once-returning. Once-returners are so called because they will be reborn only once again in “this world” (i.e. the kãmaloka). On the other hand, those who have developed the ability to attain absorption at will, and have not lost this ability, are not going to return to “this world” in their next life. They will be reborn in a higher heavenly sphere (i.e. the rûpaloka or the arûpaloka). This certainly does not imply that a stream-enterer or a once-returner cannot have absorption attainments. But if they were all absorption attainers, the very concept of a “once-returner” would be superfluous, since not a single once-returner would ever return to “this world”.
According to the discourses, the difference between the realizations of “once-returning” and “non-returning” is related to differing levels of concentrative ability. Several passages point out that the once-returner, in contrast to the non-returner, has not yet fulfilled the development of concentration. Judging from this, the attainment of absorption might be of relevance for the realization of non-returning. In fact, several discourses relate progress towards the higher two stages of the path, non-returning and arahantship, to having had the experience of the first or higher absorptions. The reason for this could be that the insightful contemplation of meditative absorption fulfils an important role in overcoming and completely eradicating the last traces of desire, and thereby facilitates the breakthrough to non-returning or full awakening.
The concluding passage of the Satipatthana Sutta, the “prediction”,appears at first sight to contradict this, since it predicts the realization of full awakening or non-returning for successful Satipatthana practice without making any additional stipulations. This could betaken to imply that absorption abilities can be dispensed with evenfor the higher stages of awakening. However, such assumptions need to be weighed against other evidence in the discourses, where the need for at least the first absorption is clearly and explicitly stated. Although absorption abilities are not directly mentioned in the Satipatthana Sutta, the general picture provided by the dis-courses suggests that the ability to attain at least the first absorption is required for the higher two stages of awakening. Otherwise it would be difficult to understand why the Buddha mentioned absorption in the standard expositions of the noble eightfold path leading to full awakening.
When considering the concluding passage of the Satipatthana Sutta, one needs to take into account that this passage is concerned with the fruits of the practice, not with the need for a particular level of concentration as a prerequisite for realization. The fact that it mentions only the higher two fruits of realization highlights the potential of proper practice. The same holds true for a group of twenty discourses in the Bojjhanga Saṃyutta, which relate a broad range of meditation practices to these two higher realizations. These in-stances, too, do not bear any relation to the presence or absence of absorption abilities, but rather call attention to the potential of therespective meditation practices. Moreover, the Madhyama Ãgama and the Ekottara Ãgama both mention absorption attainment as part of their expositions on Satipatthana. This suggests that for Satipatthana to unfold its full potential of leading to non-returning or full awakening, the development of absorption is required.
Anālayo (2006), pp. 79-83
Too Long Didn’t read version:
even though the early discourses support the idea that one can attain stream entry without having developed the jhanas (mainly by listening to a discourse by the Buddha), Anālayo argues that “for satipaṭṭhāna to unfold its full potential of leading to non-returning or full awakening [arahantship], the development of absorption is required.” This based on many discourses which state jhana is needed for these two higher stages.
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If jhana is really that hard, how did the child buddha attain it ?
People have spontaneous spiritual experiences which are deep and powerful all the time. That could be do to a variety of many factors, including past life experiences and accumulation of merit. Just because one has one of those experiences once does not mean that those experiences are easily replicated or mastered.
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Explain how it is possible for one to attain nibbana just by hearing dhamma from the lord
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Explain Why the buddha when he was a child, attained jhana easily naturally effortlessly unintentionally without guidances and instructions at all while the adult buddha even used mortification like holding breath and starvation with guidances and instructions from his former jain gurus but without result/jhana at all even though he have attained the dimension of neither perception nor non perception
so this is zero effort vs severe grueling effort and it’s not me that said that
Mn 36
"Then I thought, Whatever ascetics and brahmins have experienced painful, sharp, severe, acute feelings due to overexertion—whether in the past, future, or present—this is as far as it goes, no-one has done more than this. But I have not achieved any superhuman distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones by this severe, grueling work.
Could there be another path to awakening?
- explain this sutta
Dn 21
“She did bow, lord of gods, and I remember what she said. I also remember that it was the sound of your chariot wheels that pulled me out of that immersion.”
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explain why sound is a thorn in the first jhana if sound can’t even be sensed at all let alone disturbing or thorning them
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explain the meaning of this sutta
An9.34
“First, take a mendicant who, quite secluded from sensual pleasures … enters and remains in the first absorption. While a mendicant is in such a meditation, should perceptions and attentions accompanied by sensual pleasures beset them, that’s an affliction for them”
- explain why there is no jhana in this sutta
An4.190
“And how has a monk attained to the imperturbable? It’s when a monk—going totally beyond perceptions of form, with the ending of perceptions of impingement, not focusing on perceptions of diversity—aware that ‘space is infinite’, enters and remains in the dimension of infinite space. Going totally beyond the dimension of infinite space, aware that ‘consciousness is infinite’, he enters and remains in the dimension of infinite consciousness. Going totally beyond the dimension of infinite consciousness, aware that ‘there is nothing at all’, he enters and remains in the dimension of nothingness. Going totally beyond the dimension of nothingness, he enters and remains in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. That’s how a monk has attained to the imperturbable.”
- explain the meaning of this sutta
Mn66
"Take a mendicant who, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption.This belongs to the perturbable, I say. And what there belongs to the perturbable? Whatever placing of the mind and keeping it connected has not ceased there is what belongs to the perturbable.
Take a mendicant who, giving up pleasure and pain, enters and remains in the fourth absorption. This belongs to the imperturbable"
- explain why the buddha condemns the ability to not hear sound in this sutta if indeed jhana is necessary
Mn152
"Uttara, does Pārāsariya teach his disciples the development of the faculties?”“He does, Master Gotama.”
“But how does he teach it?”
“Master Gotama, it’s when the eye sees no sight and the ear hears no sound. That’s how Pārāsariya teaches his disciples the development of the faculties.”
“In that case, Uttara, a blind person and a deaf person will have developed faculties according to what Pārāsariya says. For a blind person sees no sight with the eye and a deaf person hears no sound with the ear.” When he said this, Uttara sat silent, embarrassed, shoulders drooping, downcast, depressed, with nothing to say.
Knowing this, the Buddha addressed Venerable Ānanda, “Ānanda, the development of the faculties taught by Pārāsariya is quite different from the supreme development of the faculties in the training of the Noble One.”
“Now is the time, Blessed One! Now is the time, Holy One. Let the Buddha teach the supreme development of the faculties in the training of the Noble One. The mendicants will listen and remember it.”
“Well then, Ānanda, listen and pay close attention, I will speak.”
“Yes, sir,” Ānanda replied. The Buddha said this:
“And how, Ānanda, is there the supreme development of the faculties in the training of the Noble One? When a mendicant sees a sight with their eyes, liking, disliking, and both liking and disliking come up in them. They understand: ‘Liking, disliking, and both liking and disliking have come up in me. That’s conditioned, coarse, and dependently originated. But this is peaceful and sublime, namely equanimity.’ Then the liking, disliking, and both liking and disliking that came up in them cease, and equanimity becomes stabilized. It’s like how a person with good sight might open their eyes then shut them; or might shut their eyes then open them. Such is the speed, the swiftness, the ease with which any liking, disliking, and both liking and disliking at all that came up in them cease, and equanimity becomes stabilized"
- Explain The fourth jhana simile for how you can wrap mental body or even breath body with cloth if indeed that’s possible
An9.34
“Furthermore, giving up pleasure and pain, and ending former happiness and sadness, a mendicant enters and remains in the fourth absorption. It is without pleasure or pain, with pure equanimity and mindfulness. They sit spreading their body through with pure bright mind. There’s no part of the body that’s not spread with pure bright mind. It’s like someone sitting wrapped from head to foot with white cloth. There’s no part of the body that’s not spread over with white cloth. In the same way, they sit spreading their body through with pure bright mind. There’s no part of the body that’s not spread with pure bright mind. This is the fourth way to develop noble right immersion with five factors.”
- Explain how it is possible for one who has difficulty to enter jhana to abide in equanimity if indeed jhana is necessary to get equanimity
Mn12
"I would make my bed in a charnel ground, with the bones of the dead for a pillow. Then the cowboys would come up to me. They’d spit and piss on me, throw mud on me, even poke sticks in my ears. But I don’t recall ever having a bad thought about them. Such was my abiding in equanimityBut Sāriputta, I did not achieve any superhuman distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones by that conduct, that practice, that grueling work. Why is that? Because I didn’t achieve that noble wisdom that’s noble and emancipating, and which leads someone who practices it to the complete ending of suffering."
- Explain how it was possible to buddha to hear what ananda said while in imperturbable concentration
Ud 3.3
"For a third time, as the night was getting late, in the last watch of the night, Ānanda got up from his seat, arranged his robe over one shoulder, raised his joined palms toward the Buddha and said, “Sir, the night is getting late. It is the last watch of the night; dawn stirs, bringing joy to the night, and the visiting mendicants have been sitting long. Sir, please greet the visiting mendicants.”Then the Buddha emerged from that immersion and addressed Ānanda,
“If you’d known, Ānanda, you wouldn’t have said so much. Both I and these five hundred mendicants have been sitting in imperturbable meditation"
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