I don't think (hard)jhana is needed to attain nibbana

The Watercooler
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and this passage from “A Study of Sukkhavipassaka in Pāli Buddhism” by Tzungkuen Wen (p. 200)

The Susīma Sutta of Saṃyutta-nikāya (SN 12:70) has sometimes been viewed as evidence for the existence of wisdom-liberated arahants who do not obtain any form-sphere jhāna. However, some scholars have highlighted that the Pāli commentary rather than the Susīma sutta proper supports the existence of such arahants since the sutta confirms only that one can attain arahantship without the five mundane super knowledges (abhiññās) and four formless jhānas; no reference is given to the form-sphere jhānas. Nevertheless, the Sarvāstivāda’s version of the Susīma Sutta clearly documents the arahants who lack form-sphere jhānas, and thus it corresponds to the Pāli commentarial explanations on the Susīma Sutta given by Buddhaghosa.

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What language Is the sarvastivada version in ?

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It depends on the time period and region. Early on, their texts were in vernacular languages like Prakrit or Central Asian languages depending on the region. Later, maybe beyond 500 CE (a guess, language history experts will have better dates), Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit became more common, and even later texts became fully Sanskritized. Apparently, there was initially a prohibition against using Sanskrit based on a scriptural passage, but it eventually was discarded.

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I don’t thinkg (hard) jhana is needed…

If so, @Sai18ram, will you then also be fine when the Buddha asks you:

SN35.88:15.1: “But if they do take your life with a sharp knife, what will you think of them then?”
SN35.88:16.1: “If they take my life with a sharp knife, I’ll think:
SN35.88:16.2: ‘There are disciples of the Buddha who looked for someone to assist with slitting their wrists because they were horrified, repelled, and disgusted with the body and with life. And I have found this without looking!’
SN35.88:16.3: That’s what I’ll think, Blessed One.
SN35.88:16.4: That’s what I’ll think, Holy One.”

If not, then perhaps jhana would help.

:pray:

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I have to disagree with you here that “there’s no other way around it” because there are many ways around to attain to non-returner.

(1) Be clear that just Jhannas alone are not enough for one to attain to non-returner and one is still considered as “uneducated ordinary person / assutavatā puthujja.”

" …a mendicant, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. They enjoy it and like it and find it satisfying. If they abide in that, are committed to it, and meditate on it often without losing it, when they die they’re reborn in the company of the gods of Brahmā’s Host. The lifespan of the gods of Brahma’s Host is one eon. An ordinary person stays there until the lifespan of those gods is spent, then they go to hell or the animal realm or the ghost realm. But a disciple of the Buddha stays there until the lifespan of those gods is spent, then they’re extinguished in that very life. This is the difference between an educated noble disciple and an uneducated ordinary person, that is, when there is a place of rebirth."
AN4.123 SuttaCentral

One will need Jhannas + see impermanent to end of defilement or at least to attain to non-returner.

“…a person, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption … They contemplate the phenomena there—included in form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness—as impermanent, as suffering, as diseased, as an abscess, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien, as falling apart, as empty, as not-self. When their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in the company of the gods of the pure abodes. This rebirth is not shared with ordinary people.”
AN4.124 SuttaCentral

‘The first absorption is a basis for ending the defilements.’ That’s what I said, but why did I say it? Take a mendicant who, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption. They contemplate the phenomena there—included in form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness—as impermanent, as suffering, as diseased, as an abscess, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien, as falling apart, as empty, as not-self. They turn their mind away from those things, and apply it to the deathless: ‘This is peaceful; this is sublime—that is, the stilling of all activities, the letting go of all attachments, the ending of craving, fading away, cessation, extinguishment.’ Abiding in that they attain the ending of defilements. If they don’t attain the ending of defilements, with the ending of the five lower fetters they’re reborn spontaneously, because of their passion and love for that meditation. They are extinguished there, and are not liable to return from that world. "
AN9.36 SuttaCentral

(2) One who’s practicing a heart full of love, compassion, rejoicing, and equanimity + seeing impermanence can also attain to non-returner.

“a person meditates spreading a heart full of love (compassion, rejoicing, and equanimity) to one direction, and to the second, and to the third, and to the fourth. In the same way above, below, across, everywhere, all around, they spread a heart full of love to the whole world—abundant, expansive, limitless, free of enmity and ill will. They contemplate the phenomena there—included in form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness—as impermanent, as suffering, as diseased, as an abscess, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien, as falling apart, as empty, as not-self. When their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in the company of the gods of the pure abodes. This rebirth is not shared with ordinary people”.
AN4.126 SuttaCentral

(3) One who’s practicing the other progressive meditations such as the dimension of infinite space, the dimension of infinite consciousness, the dimension of nothingness + seeing impermanence can also attain to non-returner. AN9.36 SuttaCentral

(4) One who has “faith, conscience, prudence, energy, and wisdom regarding skillful qualities” + ending of the five lower fetters can also attain to non-returner.

And what kind of person rises up then finds a footing? It’s the kind of person who, rising up, thinks: ‘It’s good to have faith, conscience, prudence, energy, and wisdom regarding skillful qualities.’ With the ending of the five lower fetters they’re reborn spontaneously. They are extinguished there, and are not liable to return from that world. This kind of person rises up then finds a footing.
AN7.15 SuttaCentral

(5) Once how’s observing impermanence + ending five lower fetters can also attain to non-returner

Next, take a person who meditates observing impermanence in all conditions. With the ending of the five lower fetters they’re extinguished between one life and the next. …
With the ending of the five lower fetters they’re extinguished upon landing. …
With the ending of the five lower fetters they’re extinguished without extra effort. …
With the ending of the five lower fetters they’re extinguished with extra effort. …
With the ending of the five lower fetters they head upstream, going to the Akaniṭṭha realm. This is the seventh person.

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Your analysis is deep, thanks for it

Is there a way to be an arahant besides jhana ?

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I guess this is a reference to Vin 2.139 where the Buddha rebukes Brahmin monastics for transmitting his teaching in chandas, i.e. in high metrical form. Some scholars have interpreted this as the Buddha’s attitude against Sanskrit, but Eltschinger (2017, 313-316) could show with Chinese parallels that the Buddha’s complaint goes against a transmission in metrical chanting, which is a stilted way of transmission compared with using sakāya niruttiyā, i.e. local dialects.

Eltschinger, V. (2017). Why did the Buddhists adopt Sanskrit?. Open Linguistics, 3(1), 308-326.

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Yes. Perhaps it was just a cultural trend in India that Sanskrit became the religious language par excellence, and Buddhists had to keep up with the times.

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Buddha said that the alternative to suicide is mindfulness of breathing not jhana

Sn54.9
Then those mendicants thought, “The Buddha spoke in many ways about the meditation on ugliness. He praised the meditation on ugliness and its development.” They committed themselves to developing the many different facets of the meditation on ugliness. Becoming horrified, repelled, and disgusted with this body, they looked for someone to slit their wrists. Each day ten, twenty, or thirty mendicants slit their wrists.

Then after a fortnight had passed, the Buddha came out of retreat and addressed Ānanda, “Ānanda, why does the mendicant Saṅgha seem so diminished?”

Ānanda told the Buddha all that had happened, and said, “Sir, please explain another way for the mendicant Saṅgha to get enlightened.”

“Well then, Ānanda, gather all the mendicants staying in the vicinity of Vesālī together in the assembly hall.”

“Yes, sir,” replied Ānanda. He did what the Buddha asked, went up to him, and said, “Sir, the mendicant Saṅgha has assembled. Please, sir, come at your convenience.”

Then the Buddha went to the assembly hall, sat down on the seat spread out, and addressed the mendicants:

“Mendicants, when this immersion due to mindfulness of breathing is developed and cultivated it’s peaceful and sublime, a deliciously pleasant meditation. And it disperses and settles unskillful qualities on the spot whenever they arise.

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Indeed he did.

However the quote from SN35.88 is more about a different situation. SN35.88 discusses how we face the tribulations of daily life. In particular, this verse is about someone being accosted and threatened with a knife in a deadly situation. In such stressful situations, panic and doubt seize us by the throat. Yet when the Buddha was followed by Aṅgulimāla the serial killer, he calmly turned around and said, "I’ve stopped, Aṅgulimāla—now you stop.”

The Buddha, enlightened as he was, met Aṅgulimāla with equanimity in the situation posed in SN35.88. So the Buddha’s question to Venerable Puṇṇa is really about the extent of his practice. Essentially the Buddha probed Venerable Puṇṇa’s understanding of nibbana.

And Venerable Puṇṇa responded with equanimity. So if we say that jhana is not needed for nibbana, then we are also asserting that we can face the worst that life can offer with equanimity, even if that worst takes our lives in the cruelest way. This is not self-imposed mortification. This is not suicide. This is simply equanimity.

SN35.88 is a sutta I use personally to gauge the level of my own understanding of nibbana. This sutta shows me clearly how much more I need to practice. And meditation is indeed the major part of that practice. So the premise that jhana is not needed to attain nibbana does not work for me. I would still not be able to face that knife pointed at me with equanimity. Even now, after decades of practice meditating and counting breaths, I would be inclined to tense up and be alarmed. I still think I am. And that’s a problem.

If you have indeed found equanimity without jhana, please describe your shortcut. The only path I have found involves meditation and study.

:pray:

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Jhana is not needed to attain equanimity

Here the buddha were still unawakened and he still had difficulty to reach jhana yet he still had equanimity

Mn12
"I would make my bed in a charnel ground, with the bones of the dead for a pillow. Then the cowboys would come up to me. They’d spit and piss on me, throw mud on me, even poke sticks in my ears. But I don’t recall ever having a bad thought about them. Such was my abiding in equanimity

But Sāriputta, I did not achieve any superhuman distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones by that conduct, that practice, that grueling work. Why is that? Because I didn’t achieve that noble wisdom that’s noble and emancipating, and which leads someone who practices it to the complete ending of suffering.

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Yes, before his enlightenment, the Buddha spent much time with equanimous self-mortification. So even then he was more advanced than I.

The Buddha found self-mortification pointless. He did, however, point to the value of equanimity on the path:

SN46.54:15.9: The apex of the heart’s release by equanimity is the dimension of nothingness, I say, for a mendicant who has not penetrated to a higher freedom.”

And equanimity is one of the awakening factors:

SN46.28:1.7: The awakening factors of mindfulness, investigation of principles, energy, rapture, tranquility, immersion, and equanimity.”

I understand the above to say that all the awakening factors are required for enlightenment. And that would include immersion.

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Some people accept the theories of Choong Mun-keat. Others here, usually agreeing with Ven. Analayo, disagree and so accept a wider range of texts as being early. Those of the 1st persuasion tend to ignore any other sutta or agama that is not from a rather specific part of the SN/SA. This of course creates a barrier, as people can then start to talk past each other. Some adherents of both sides can sometimes take on an almost religious fundamentalism to these positions, which is silly really since they are academic hypotheses.

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My understanding is that there are two methods for one to be Arahant (ending defilements in this present life).
(1) Through painful practice as below. Moggallāna became arahant with this method. AN4.167 SuttaCentral

…a mendicant meditates observing the ugliness of the body, perceives the repulsiveness of food, perceives dissatisfaction with the whole world, observes the impermanence of all conditions, and has well established the perception of their own death. They rely on these five powers of a trainee: faith, conscience, prudence, energy, and wisdom…" AN4.163 SuttaCentral

(2) Through pleasant practice as below. Sāriputta became arahant with this method. AN4.168 SuttaCentral

…a mendicant, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. As the placing of the mind and keeping it connected are stilled, they enter and remain in the second absorption…They rely on these five powers of a trainee: faith, conscience, prudence, energy, and wisdom…" AN4.163 SuttaCentral

The Buddha teaching is for every level of people. Pretty much, one doesn’t need Jhannas and can still make end of suffering in this present life through painful practice as above. Or, just have firm confidence in the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha + firm in the 5 precepts and bound for awakening <= seven rebirths. As the Buddha said, there is no difference between one who’s liberated now or then.

One might be very skillful at doing Jhannas but has never heard of the Buddha teaching before won’t make end to suffering.

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I will try to research more suttas regarding this perhaps there is other way besides jhana and self mortification

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One excellent sutta that offers a solid explanation of the jhana vs. non-jhana consideration is MN8, which baldly dismisses jhana at first glance:

MN8:4.1: It’s possible that a certain mendicant, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, might enter and remain in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. They might think they’re practicing self-effacement. But in the training of the Noble One these are not called ‘self-effacement’; they’re called ‘blissful meditations in the present life’.

Indeed, MN8 asserts that jhana alone is insufficient even to the mastery peaceful equanimity in the dimension of neither perception and non-perception.

MN8:11.1: It’s possible that some mendicant, going totally beyond the dimension of nothingness, might enter and remain in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. They might think they’re practicing self-effacement. But in the training of the Noble One these are not called ‘self-effacement’; they’re called ‘peaceful meditations’.

The Buddha downplays all of jhana in MN8. Instead, the Buddha emphasizes ethics to Venerable Cunda:

MN8:12.1: Now, Cunda, you should work on self-effacement in each of the following ways. ‘Others will be cruel, but here we will not be cruel.’ ‘Others will kill living creatures, but here we will not kill living creatures.’ …

And then, to wrap things up, the Buddha very gently…
…very gently…
In the end, the Buddha points Ven. Cunda very gently back towards jhana :open_mouth:

MN8:17.1: So, Cunda, I’ve taught the expositions by way of self-effacement, giving rise to thought, the way around, going up, and extinguishing. Out of compassion, I’ve done what a teacher should do who wants what’s best for their disciples. Here are these roots of trees, and here are these empty huts. Practice absorption, Cunda! Don’t be negligent! Don’t regret it later! This is my instruction.”

So MN8 helped me a lot in understanding how to incorporate jhana into my practice along with all the other factors. Like Cunda, I had practiced meditation for many decades and found it very helpful but also insufficient. But when I read the teachings of the Buddha and understood this particular sutta about ethics, the importance of all the other path factors became apparent. In the end, I found that, yes, the Buddha was right.

As instructed, I then spent quite a lot of time practicing ethics. And then, also as instructed, I added jhana back in.

:pray:

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It’s very clear in the teachings of the Buddha that self mortification is not the path. And Jhanas are not self mortification, it’s the middle way, the direct path to realisation.

I also need to read up the whole nikayas first, cause you’re asking for sutta evidences. I couldn’t convince you with just traditional stuffs I learnt from Dhamma talks and retreats. May you be able to take note of Jhanas whenever they appear in the suttas instead of ignoring them.

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I think you can reply to hmong before to me, he have good points

Screenshot_20210405-183224
Screenshot_20210405-1832241080×2160 306 KB

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Hi,
I think the phrase at the end of MN 8
jhāyatha, cunda, mā pamādattha, mā pacchāvippaṭisārino ahuvattha
is not necessarily pointing to ‘jhāna’ as ‘meditative absorption’ but rather ‘meditation’ in a more general sense.
The phrase has also been translated as:
“Meditate, Cunda, do not delay or else you will regret it later.”

PED gives the definition of the verb jhāyati as
“to meditate, contemplate, think upon”,
so it seems at least possible that what is being recommended are the practices given earlier in the sutta

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Yes.

And that very subtle use of generality that includes jhana is vastly more inclusive by not detailing jhana explicitly. That use of generality includes things like walking meditation and counting breaths, which would be impossible in fourth jhana. That generality is one of those amazing details of insight that astound me about the teachings. The Buddha is instructing us to practice the spectrum of meditation in its entirety.

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