I don't think (hard)jhana is needed to attain nibbana

Haha, I have only common sense to use. As in the sutta where the Buddha asked monks who gathered to either speak on the dhamma or keep noble silence, it’s plain nonsense to extrapolate that noble silence to become 2nd Jhana when the category of choice here is mode of external speech. And the consequences of such extrapolation is the confusion above.

Anyway, if you like the confusion above, feel free to engage in it. I don’t wanna engage in this not common sensical conversation anymore.

Please hold for a Public Service Announcement…

image
:slightly_smiling_face:

2 Likes

The problem is to each person the common sense is different nigantha nataputta the founder of jainism didn’t believe that 2nd jhana is possible he thought it doesn’t make sense that such a thing exists or possible

Instead of relying on too much assumptions it would be better to rely on dhamma or atleast oclam razor/least assumptions possible

In noble silence there’s no vitakka that’s very different from normal silence hence it’s noble, but there are other suttas that said in impure noble silence there’s still vitakka so you can be right here if you said impure noble silence is normal silence or no talking

Another example is your definition of “living alone” would be different from buddha’s definition of “living alone” and that’s another case where your common sense won’t help you

He actually made some good points

Keep in mind there is also wrong jhana. There is a sutta where people attain jhana without overcoming the 5 hindrances. Like the fire ascetics who concentrate on fire and attain supernormal powers from that.

I’ll try to find that sutta again, where people attain jhanas without stopping the 5 hindrances.

For it to be Samma Samadhi, it must be based on Right View. Supermundane Right View means based on the: four noble truths, 5 aggregates, dependent origination, 7 factors of awakening, 6fold sense media, 5 hindrances

Or in short, as the Samma Ditthi Sutta says: knowing what is wholesome and unwholesome, and the root of wholesome and unwholesome, which is the 3 poisons.

So if a jhana does not overcome the 5 hindrances, and therefore the 3 poisons temporarily, then it is not Samma Samadhi.

Sati means remembering the dhamma. Sampajanna means awareness of what is Arising and Ceasing.

If someone has Sati-Sampajanna then they are acting out of Right View

And how, bhikkhus, is a bhikkhu mindful? Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu dwells contemplating the body in the body … feelings in feelings … mind in mind … phenomena in phenomena, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful, having removed covetousness and displeasure in regard to the world. It is in this way, bhikkhus, that a bhikkhu is mindful.

“And how, bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu exercise clear comprehension? Here, bhikkhus, for a bhikkhu feelings are understood as they arise, understood as they remain present, understood as they pass away. Thoughts are understood as they arise, understood as they remain present, understood as they pass away. Perceptions are understood as they arise, understood as they remain present, understood as they pass away. It is in this way, bhikkhus, that a bhikkhu exercises clear comprehension.

You can already see in the first Tetrad of kayagatasati sutta that unwholesome mental qualities are removed

"Breathing in long, he discerns, ‘I am breathing in long’; or breathing out long, he discerns, ‘I am breathing out long.’ Or breathing in short, he discerns, ‘I am breathing in short’; or breathing out short, he discerns, ‘I am breathing out short.’ He trains himself, ‘I will breathe in sensitive to the entire body.’ He trains himself, ‘I will breathe out sensitive to the entire body.’ He trains himself, ‘I will breathe in calming bodily fabrication.’ He trains himself, ‘I will breathe out calming bodily fabrication.’ And as he remains thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, any memories & resolves related to the household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning his mind gathers & settles inwardly, grows unified & centered. This is how a monk develops mindfulness immersed in the body.

So you can see already sati-sampajanna is established in the first tetrad.

Therefore before one even sits down they need to have mastered guarding their thoughts 24/7

“This is Nanda’s mindfulness and clear comprehension: Nanda knows feelings as they arise, as they remain present, as they disappear; he knows perceptions as they arise, as they remain present, as they disappear; he knows thoughts as they arise, as they remain present, as they disappear. That is Nanda’s mindfulness and clear comprehension.

“Bhikkhus, this is how Nanda guards the doors of the sense faculties: If he needs to look to the east, he does so after he has fully considered the matter and clearly comprehends it thus: ‘When I look to the east, bad unwholesome states of longing and dejection will not flow in upon me.’ If he needs to look to the west … to the north … to the south … to look up … to look down … to survey the intermediate directions, he does so after he has fully considered the matter and clearly comprehends it thus: ‘When I look to the intermediate directions, bad unwholesome states of longing and dejection will not flow in upon me.’ That is how Nanda guards the doors of the sense faculties.

and you can see that your mind should be guarded from unwholesome thoughts all the time.

Bhikkhus, if while walking a sensual thought or a thought of ill will or an aggressive thought arises in a bhikkhu, and if he tolerates it and does not reject it, does not dispel it and get rid of it and bring it to an end, that bhikkhu—who in such a manner is lacking in ardour and unafraid of wrongdoing—is called constantly lazy and indolent. If while standing … If while sitting … If while lying down a sensual thought or a thought of ill will or an aggressive thought arises in a bhikkhu, and if he tolerates it and does not reject it … that bhikkhu is called constantly lazy and indolent.

  • iti 110

So Jhanas are required for Nibbana, and even Stream Entry fruit, and it’s important to not confuse jhanas based in right view (samma samadhi) with jhanas that do not overcome the 5 Hindrances

“If while he is walking, standing, sitting, and lying down a bhikkhu is free from covetousness and ill will, free from sloth and torpor, free from restlessness and worry, and has abandoned doubts, his energy becomes strong and unflagging, his mindfulness is alert and unclouded, his body is calm and undistressed, his mind concentrated and one-pointed. A bhikkhu who in such a manner is ardent and afraid of wrongdoing is called constantly energetic and resolute.”

  • iti 111
3 Likes

Yes I think that’s it but first I will research the suttas to convince myself

I currently think that any state devoids of 5 hindrances is right jhana

Well, like I said, there’s a sutta that talks about jhanas with 5 hindrances. I’ll try to find it.

I found it

In the same way, take a certain wild person who has gone to the forest, the root of a tree, or an empty hut. Their heart is overcome and mired in sensual desire, and they don’t truly understand the escape from sensual desire that has arisen. Harboring sensual desire within they meditate and concentrate and contemplate and ruminate. Their heart is overcome by ill will … dullness and drowsiness … restlessness and remorse … doubt … Harboring doubt within they meditate and concentrate and contemplate and ruminate. They meditate dependent on earth, water, fire, and air. They meditate dependent on the dimension of infinite space, infinite consciousness, nothingness, or neither perception nor non-perception. They meditate dependent on this world or the other world. They meditate dependent on what is seen, heard, thought, known, attained, sought, or explored by the mind. That’s how a wild colt meditates.

  • AN 11.9

So as you can see, one can attain jhanas and the formless jhanas without overcoming the 5 hindrances. This is what alara kalama and udakka ramaputta did. This is what the fire ascetics did by focusing on fire, and what many people do today by focusing on a kasina.

The Buddha taught that mind comes first, so sitting down and focusing on your breath isn’t what the Buddha taught. Sitting down watching your mind, and overcoming the 5 hindrances is what the Buddha taught.

The jhanas of Samma Samadhi requires that you are secluded from sensuality, and your mind objects (perceptions) are considered sensuality, so the Buddha’s jhanas require meditating without perception of sensuality

Sandha, for a fine thoroughbred person, the perception of earth has vanished in relation to earth. The perception of water … fire … air has vanished in relation to air. The perception of the dimension of infinite space has vanished in relation to the dimension of infinite space. The perception of the dimension of infinite consciousness … nothingness … neither perception nor non-perception has vanished in relation to the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. The perception of this world has vanished in relation to this world. The perception of the other world has vanished in relation to the other world. And the perception of what is seen, heard, thought, known, attained, sought, or explored by the mind has vanished. That’s how that fine thoroughbred person doesn’t meditate dependent on earth, water, fire, and air. They don’t meditate dependent on the dimension of infinite space, infinite consciousness, nothingness, or neither perception nor non-perception. They don’t meditate dependent on this world or the other world. They don’t meditate dependent on what is seen, heard, thought, known, attained, sought, or explored by the mind. Yet they do meditate.

Perception, refers to mental images. So you can’t even attain the Samma Samadhi first jhana until you have gotten rid of sensual mental images.

This is backed up by the panner sutta

When they’ve been given up and eliminated, there are middling corruptions: sensual, malicious, or cruel thoughts. A sincere, capable mendicant gives these up, gets rid of, eliminates, and obliterates them.

When they’ve been given up and eliminated, there are fine corruptions: thoughts of family, country, and being looked up to. A sincere, capable mendicant gives these up, gets rid of, eliminates, and obliterates them.

When they’ve been given up and eliminated, only thoughts about the teaching are left. That immersion is not peaceful or sublime or tranquil or unified, but is held in place by forceful suppression.

But there comes a time when that mind is stilled internally; it settles, unifies, and becomes immersed in samādhi. That immersion is peaceful and sublime and tranquil and unified, not held in place by forceful suppression. They become capable of realizing anything that can be realized by insight to which they extend the mind, in each and every case.

It’s also why the Buddha told his cousin Mahanama that only once you attain jhana (real samma samadhi jhana), will you stop having thoughts about sensual desires.

2 Likes

Yes Buddha’s jhanas is secluded from hindrances

Right, but it’s very specific. People think that a hindrance is not present when it is in fact present. Thoughts are born from Perception, so a thought is a symptom of a perception. If you have sensual thoughts, you have sensual perception. But even if you don’t have sensual thoughts, you can still have sensual perceptions (mental images), and as long as you have sensual perceptions, you’re not going to get real samma samadhi first jhana. You can get Wrong Jhana, by focusing hard on an object like a kasina, but not Samma Samadhi first jhana which is born from seclusion from sensuality (including mental objects).

Just wanted to make that clear, as not all jhanas are the Buddha’s jhanas.

2 Likes

Now we need the suttas

Dn34
For someone who has attained the first absorption, sensual perceptions have ceased

An6.29
Furthermore, a mendicant examines their own body up from the soles of the feet and down from the tips of the hairs, wrapped in skin and full of many kinds of filth. ‘In this body there is head hair, body hair, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, sinews, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, diaphragm, spleen, lungs, intestines, mesentery, undigested food, feces, bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, grease, saliva, snot, synovial fluid, urine.’ When this topic of recollection is developed and cultivated in this way it leads to giving up sensual desire

Sn14.12
And how do sensual, malicious, and cruel thoughts arise for a reason, not without reason? The element of sensuality gives rise to sensual perceptions. Sensual perceptions give rise to sensual thoughts. Sensual thoughts give rise to sensual desires. Sensual desires give rise to sensual passions. Sensual passions give rise to searches for sensual pleasures. An uneducated ordinary person on a search for sensual pleasures behaves badly in three ways: by body, speech, and mind.

Dn9
Quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, they enter and remain in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. The sensual perception that they had previously ceases. At that time they have a subtle and true perception of the rapture and bliss born of seclusion. That’s how, with training, certain perceptions arise and certain perceptions cease. And this is that training,” said the Buddha.

1 Like

Correct, the hard part is stopping sensual perceptions. It’s easy to lock yourself in a room and seclude your body, it’s not easy to seclude your perceptions from sensuality. The Buddha never gets sensual perceptions.

Friend, in the eighty years since I went forth [into the ascetic life] I do not recall a sensuous mental image having ever arisen in me.

Asīti me āvuso kassapa vassāni pabbajitassa nābhijānāmi kāmasaññaṃ uppannapubbaṃ.

— M.3.125

In this regard, Ānanda, the arising, continuance, and vanishing of sense impressions (vedanā), mental images (saññā), and thoughts (vitakkā) is known by the Perfect One.

Idhānanda tathāgatassa viditā vedanā uppajjanti. Viditā upaṭṭhahanti. Viditā abbhatthaṃ gacchanti. Viditā saññā uppajjanti viditā upaṭṭhahanti. Viditā abbhatthaṃ gacchanti. Viditā vitakkā uppajjanti. Viditā upaṭṭhahanti. Viditā abbhatthaṃ gacchanti.

— M.3.124

[I proclaim] a doctrine, friend, such that…​ one does not abide quarrelling with anyone in the world; such that for the Brahman who abides emancipated from sensuous pleasures, free of uncertainty [about the significance of the teaching], free of anxiety, free of craving for all states of individual existence, [unvirtuous and spiritually unwholesome] mental images do not lurk within him.

yathāvādī kho āvuso…​ na kenaci loke viggayha tiṭṭhati yathā ca pana kāmehi visaṃyuttaṃ viharantaṃ taṃ brāhmaṇaṃ akathaṅkathiṃ chinnakukkuccaṃ bhavābhave vītataṇhaṃ saññā nānusenti.

— M.1.108

1 Like

What’s this, is this mn ?

It’s mn 124, ven varado translation which is based on the i.b. horner translation

Mn124
Reverend Bakkula, how long has it been since you went forth?”

“It has been eighty years, reverend.”

“But in these eighty years, how many times have you had sex?”

“You shouldn’t ask me such a question. Rather, you should ask me this: ‘But in these eighty years, how many times have sensual perceptions ever arisen in you?’”

“But in these eighty years, how many times have sensual perceptions ever arisen in you?”

“In these eighty years, I don’t recall that any sensual perception has ever arisen in me.”

The first interpretation is he is always in first jhana hence he has no sensual perception for 80 years

The second interpretation is he is atleast a non returner so he doesn’t have
the underlying desire for sensual objects

Jhana is a lower achievement compared to non returner fruit so sensual perception < fetter of sensual desires

Furthermore You can enter jhana multiple times but once a fetter is abandoned it’s irreversible

So cessation of sensual desires alone is more than enough

Furthermore only when sensual perception cease sensual desires cease but I May be mistaken here

That’s how I currently understand this

Update 1 I think you can anihilate sensual thought without anihilating sensual perception and here the 4 mindfulness meditation is first jhana that’s why buddha omits the first jhana signature

Mn125
24.1Then the Realized One guides them further: 24.2‘Come, mendicant, meditate observing an aspect of the body, but don’t think thoughts connected with sensual pleasures. 24.3Meditate observing an aspect of feelings … 24.4mind … 24.5principles, but don’t think thoughts connected with sensual pleasures.’

25.1As the placing of the mind and keeping it connected are stilled, they enter and remain in the second absorption … 25.2third absorption … 25.3fourth absorption.

Please ignore those numbers

Sorry I didn’t come to the site for a few days.
Please refer what the Samma Sambuddha said in SuttaCentral

2 Likes

Sure, second jhana is noble silence. But is noble silence only the second jhana? maybe as cabbage is a vegetable, but a vegetable is not just cabbage? Or do you mean most of medicants can attain second jhana, so they can keep noble silence? Just note that the Buddha said nothing about ignoble silence.

1 Like

Silence and noble silence are very different

These are all occurrences of noble silences in suttas

Mn26 and an9.4
Good, mendicants! It’s appropriate for gentlemen like you, who have gone forth in faith from the lay life to homelessness, to sit together and talk about the teaching. When you’re sitting together you should do one of two things: discuss the teachings or keep noble silence.

Note when thoughts came to moggalana’s mind buddha instructed moggalana to not neglect noble silence this means noble silence is mind silence Or a state free of thoughts and external silence, not just external silence

Sn21.1
Venerable Mahāmoggallāna said this:

“Just now, reverends, as I was in private retreat this thought came to mind: ‘They speak of this thing called “noble silence”. What then is this noble silence?’

It occurred to me: ‘As the placing of the mind and keeping it connected are stilled, a mendicant enters and remains in the second absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of immersion, with internal clarity and confidence, and unified mind, without placing the mind and keeping it connected. This is called noble silence.’

And so, as the placing of the mind and keeping it connected were stilled, I was entering and remaining in the second absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of immersion, with internal clarity and confidence, and unified mind, without placing the mind and keeping it connected.

While I was in that meditation, perceptions and attentions accompanied by placing the mind beset me.

Then the Buddha came up to me with his psychic power and said, ‘Moggallāna, Moggallāna! Don’t neglect noble silence, brahmin! Settle your mind in noble silence; unify your mind and bring it to immersion in noble silence.’

An8.2
When in the Saṅgha they don’t engage in motley talk or unworthy talk. Either they talk on Dhamma, or they invite someone else to do so, or they respect noble silence. This is the seventh cause.

Ud 2.2, ud3.8 and ud3.9
Mendicants, it is not appropriate for you gentlemen who have gone forth in faith from the lay life to homelessness to talk about such things. When you’re sitting together you should do one of two things: discuss the teachings or keep noble silence.”

Now for silence which is only external silence without mind silence

Dn3 and mn35
So the Buddha said to him, “Answer now, Ambaṭṭha. Now is not the time for silence. If someone fails to answer a legitimate question when asked three times by the Buddha, their head explodes into seven pieces there and then

Dn3
He said to the Buddha, “Would Master Gotama together with the mendicant Saṅgha please accept today’s meal from me?” The Buddha consented in silence.

Dn5
But the brahmin Kūṭadanta sat in silence. So those brahmins said to him, “How can you not applaud the ascetic Gotama’s fine words?”

It’s not that I don’t applaud what he said. If anyone didn’t applaud such fine words, their head would explode!

Dn18
That is the topic on which Brahmā Sanaṅkumāra spoke. And while he was speaking on that topic, each of the gods fancied, “The one sitting on my couch is the only one speaking.”

When one is speaking,
all the forms speak.
When one sits in silence,
they all remain silent.

But those gods imagine—
the Thirty-Three with their Lord—
that the one on their seat
is the only one to speak.

Mn86
Don’t take this road, ascetic. On this road there is a bandit named Aṅgulimāla. He is violent, bloody-handed, a hardened killer, merciless to living beings. He has laid waste to villages, towns, and countries. He is constantly murdering people, and he wears their fingers as a necklace. People travel along this road only after banding closely together in groups of ten, twenty, thirty, forty, or fifty. Still they meet their end by Aṅgulimāla’s hand.” But when they said this, the Buddha went on in silence.

For a second time … and a third time, they urged the Buddha to turn back.

But when they said this, the Buddha went on in silence.

Sn41.5
Well then, sir, please wait a moment while I consider the meaning of this.” Then after a short silence Citta said to Kāmabhū:

Now these are noble silence mistaken to be silence by people without physic power

Mn91
After eating he sits for a while in silence, but doesn’t wait too long to give the verses of appreciation. After eating he expresses appreciation without criticizing the meal or expecting another one. Invariably, he educates, encourages, fires up, and inspires that assembly with a Dhamma talk. Then he gets up from his seat and leaves.

Sn9.10
Now at that time that mendicant had previously been spending too much time in recitation. But some time later they adhered to passivity and silence.

Sn21.4
Is it really true, monk, that after your meal, on your return from alms-round, you entered your dwelling, where you adhered to passivity and silence, and you didn’t help the mendicants out when it was time to sew robes?”

An2.32
Then the bad mendicants continually adhere to silence in the midst of the Saṅgha, or they leave for some place or other. This is for the welfare and happiness of the people, for the benefit, welfare, and happiness of gods and humans.”

So noble silence includes silence for in noble silence there’s no external silence but silence is not noble silence for there’s no mind silence in silence

After all buddha is simple and he wouldn’t introduce unnecessary word if existing word can be used the fact that he introduced noble to silence mean that’s something that existing word like silence can’t do

What’s really important is noble silence can only be recognized by buddha,gods and arahant with physic power so sometimes you are in noble silence but people mistaken it to be silence

2 Likes

And this is why the jain ascetics didn’t believe citta the householder when he said he can attain second jhana easily, because in their debates with the Buddha they said the body comes first. They believe that standing still all day prevents karma and that they attain enlightenment that way, but the Buddha told them that mind precedes body, mind comes first. So even if they’re standing still all day, as long as they’re thinking and having perceptions, they’re still generating karma. They are unable to go beyond first jhana, and are unable to attain noble silence.

2 Likes

Maybe one need to practice second jhāna to understand noble silence is not just second jhāna or just the second jhāna itself :slight_smile:

But let come back to the OP…

Is sammāsamādhi necessary to attain Nibbāna? Definetely Yes!

Is jhāna the only way to attain Nibbāna? debating here, let consider…

  1. Based on the Nikayas:

a. There are many suttas clearly stating that from the first jhāna…, one develop vipassana and attains Nibbāna. So jhāna is clearly the way to Nibbāna.

b. There is a MN52 stating that with the four immeasurable citta one can also reach Nibbāna-

“Suppose a person had a house with eleven doors. If the house caught fire they’d be able to flee to safety through any one of those doors. In the same way, I’m able to flee to safety through any one of these eleven doors to the deathless”.

(please note that sutta talks about 11 doors, not 7 doors. If one say that that four immeasurable cittas are the same as jhānas, so one can count only 7 doors)

c. There is the SA347: You can attain Nibbāna without jhāna.

  1. From Theravada Commentary: The commentary states that there are so-called sukkhavipassakas, who are Arahants without jhāna. (Do you think that theras- commentators and theras who collect, preserve and passed down the Tipiṭaka from generation to generation are not so good in Dhamma as we are now, with Internet and Computers? I am not sure :slight_smile: )

@Sai18ram, whatever you think, but this teaching of the Buddha is very inspiring - "These are the feet of trees, bhikkhus, these are empty huts. Meditate, bhikkhus, do not be negligent, lest you regret it later. This is our instruction to you.”

3 Likes