I think Snp is the earliest Buddhism

The Watercooler
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I think comparing the bulk* of the SN verse to the bulk of the Snp verse leaves little doubt that the Buddhism that is depicted in the Snp verse predates that of SN and probably just about the entirety of the four principle prose nikayas.

(* An oversimplification, SN3 for eg, the poems not the prose seems comparable to what we find in Snp)

It makes me wonder if we are not permitted to simply take the word of piṅgiyo as a statement of truth:

gotamo bhūrimedhaso.
Gotama, vast in intelligence.

Yo me dhammamadesesi,
He is the one who taught me Dhamma,

Why should we not take it to be the case that this poem is authored by a person who met and spoke with the Buddha?

What compelling arguments are there not to take this as a genuine reflection of what “Buddhism” was like by a person who was there when it started?

The conversion of dreadlocked dear hide preservers by head-shaved beggers certainly sounds pretty archaic when compared with some of the conversion narratives in the prose collections.

Even the king in the village is much more village sized.

@Raftafarian if your still around you have converted me :slight_smile:

More to come.

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Like, the poetry parts of Snp SN3, SN7, SN9, SN10 and SN11 are my picks for the earliest strata of poetry, and Buddhism, with SN8 drifting a little later.

I think I need some secondary literature recommendations peeps?

If I could read one book length work on early Buddhist poetry what should it be?

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K R Norman’s translations of the Theragāthā and Therīgāthā are quite good, both for the translations and the introduction. You can get them at the PTS website: Official site of the Pali Text Society

They’re quite trustworthy. I get books from them all the time.

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Norman’s Dhammapada translation is also excellent, very literal.
His notes usually state the verse’s metre.

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Also, you can find them on Archive.org:

Thera:

Therī:

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It seems the methodology or approach to determine the earliness of any text probably has to cover ranging from Linguistic Features , Authorship , School Affiliation plus Comparative Studies and Investigation into the counterparts and parallels among the Chinese Agamas and the Pali Nikayas as well as the texts of the Abhidharmas or even other available ancient texts or historical dictations .

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