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If ignorance ceases choice will cease but will choice cease entirely or only Choice rooted in ignorance ceases?

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By unconsciousness is that similar to being unmindful ?

So both ignorance and craving cease together right, why doesn’t craving wait for feeling to cease first ?

I know this from you now :slightly_smiling_face: thanks

May you be happy joe
May your day be good today :smiling_face_with_three_hearts::smiling_face_with_three_hearts:

Do you think it’s possible to crave or cling to nothing? ,by nothing do you mean dimension of nothingness or nibbana ? Do you think nibbana can be equated as nothing or not ?

So zawnyunt choice is a reaction to ignorance, isn’t it ?

So ignorance exists all the time including when we sleep, am I right or do I misunderstand you ?

That’s new to me, thanks, we grasp to impermanent things what we think is always otherwise due to changing and inconstancy, we are deluded by our expectations, at least that’s how I understand your quote above

Thanks zawnyunt you are awesome :heart_eyes:
Thanks for the insight you give to me
May you, your family and your ancestors be happy :smiling_face_with_three_hearts::smiling_face_with_three_hearts:

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There are only natural impersonal phenomenon- rising and passing away of nama and rupa which take place on the physical body obtained from the parents and grown up by continuous nourishment.

We are like ever-late creatures. We knew only when it’s gone.
So, actually, there is nothing. But we don’t know it.
We revive dead nama/rupa as if it were present and make responses.
So, it leads to Ignorance-led DO cycle.

We are meditating so that the Ignorance could be replaced with Insight wisdom.

Thanks and regards,

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If you try to follow the eightfold noble path from morality and right understanding step by step, you will understand the whole teaching. But if you have specific questions, I can try to answer.

unconsciousness state is not aware of DO/Four noble truth. The Asava (influences/defilements) are flowing in caused the process construction activities and all the conditions. (Look for MN 2 for all influences/defilements)

only arahant has all ceases. All the rest (common folks, up to non returner) hasn’t completely ceased.

About Sankharas

One more thing I want to add on sankharas (common translation is choices due to relation with Kamma). This is not “correctly” translated.

If you look at SN 12.2 the pali is kāyasaṅkhāro, vacīsaṅkhāro, cittasaṅkhāro. This refer to bodily activity, speech activity, and mind activity.

and cross reference it with SN 41.6 regarding the jhana (purity of mind), you will understand it is process construction activities.

But sir, why is breathing in and out is a bodily activity? Why are forming of concept and answering it known as speech activity? Why are sensation and feeling is mind activity? …

When one progress through Jhana, the forming of concept and answering it ceases on 2nd jhana (it is called noble silence). And breathing in and out ceases at 4th jhana. and the mental processes ceases on sanna vedayita nirodha, 9th jhana (Only body).

These activities happen automatically for people that is unconscious/ignorance. They don’t have control or can make it cease unless they go through the jhana progression + final understanding.

Hope this expand your knowledge.

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As you know, we are dealing with three different lives, each separated by rebirth:

  1. ignorance → choice
  2. consciousness → name and form → contact → feeling → craving → grasping → existence
  3. rebirth → death (and suffering)

Now you can look at this sequence from the point if view of each of these lives. From the point of view of the first life, ignorance and choice cease when you become an arahant, whereas the rest of the chain ceases when the arahant dies. From the point of view of the second life, craving ceases when you become an arahant, as does grasping and existence. Rebirth and death cease when the arahant dies. If you read the suttas on dependent origination in the Nidāna Saṃyutta, you will see each of these pattern exemplified.

The three life structure works better for dependent origination (DO) than it does for dependent cessation (DC). In fact you could say that the 12-factor formula is really meant for DO, whereas its use for DC is secondary. With DO you look forward to a series of lives, but with DC this is not so. It becomes a bit awkward to fit a three-life model to a process that ceases at the end of the first life. This is why you need to read the suttas in Nidāna Saṃyutta with this in mind. The solution then becomes quite clear.

Sorry I did not see your first question! I was wondering why you started with question 2. :upside_down_face:

So yes, saṅkhāra (choices) here refers to choices rooted in ignorance. In other words, it refers to choices that have to do with creating a future for yourself, which is what choices really are about. The arahant also chooses, but their choices are “functional”. That is, they choose so as to be able to function, for instance, eating and necessary talking, but not because they crave for a particular future state.

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Just final thoughts.

DO is hard and complex for regular human mind, you need to raise your mind to jhana level to understand. Hence try to understand four noble truth first and practice good morality to calm your actions, then you will get a calm minds.

And Jhana is purity of mind, calm mind, expansive mind, very focus mind if needed, it is super normal, silent mind, clear mind, free of senses desire, free of hindrances, etc. You need to let go things in your mind and have 7 foundations to get into it that is right view/understanding, right thoughts, right action, right speech, right lifestyle, right effort/practice, right introspection (“mindfulness”). To get into jhana is 24 hours effort/practice and not just 1-2 hours. One can be in Jhana for 24 hours/day.(See AN 3.63 Venagapura sutta)

Also, When someone say something/statement, is it based for your good or not good? Can it be verified here and now? Is it based on direct experience or not?

Read AN3.65 Kesamutti Sutta,

Please, Kālāmas, don’t go by oral transmission, don’t go by lineage, don’t go by testament, don’t go by canonical authority, don’t rely on logic, don’t rely on inference, don’t go by reasoned contemplation, don’t go by the acceptance of a view after consideration, don’t go by the appearance of competence, and don’t think ‘The ascetic is our respected teacher.’ But when you know for yourselves (direct experience): ‘These things are unskillful, blameworthy, criticized by sensible people, and when you undertake them, they lead to harm and suffering’, then you should give them up.

… These things are skillful, blameless, praised by sensible people, and when you undertake them, they lead to welfare and happiness’, then you should acquire them and keep them.

Also, What good about Buddha teaching (dhammanussati on any sutta) is

Buddha teaching has to be Clear and concise, can be experienced through our senses, independent of time (here and now), come and see for oneself, can be understood by Wise person (need to be practiced personally, not because of hearsay).

Buddha can show the way, but you need to practice & follow the instruction step by step (MN107 etc). Can’t be skipped, hence it is graduated training and not a sudden training to be awakened.

Regarding 3 life of DO,

Please check MN 38 Maha Tanha Sankaya Sutta, Buddha admonished a monk who has a view of consciousness transmigrate from one life to another.

Also MN2 Sabba Asava Sutta states if you attend to past, present, future. You are not free from suffering. But if you attend to four noble truths, you will abandon the 3 low fetters.

Except below:

*And what are the defilements that should be given up by seeing?

Take an uneducated ordinary person who has not seen the noble ones, and is neither skilled nor trained in the teaching of the noble ones. They’ve not seen good persons, and are neither skilled nor trained in the teaching of the good persons. They don’t understand to which things they should pay attention and to which things they should not pay attention.

This is how they attend improperly: ‘Did I exist in the past? Did I not exist in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? After being what, what did I become in the past? Will I exist in the future? Will I not exist in the future? What will I be in the future? How will I be in the future? After being what, what will I become in the future?’ Or they are undecided about the present thus: ‘Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? This sentient being—where did it come from? And where will it go?’

An uneducated ordinary person who is fettered by views is not freed from birth, old age, and death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress. They’re not freed from suffering, I say.

But take an educated noble disciple who has seen the noble ones, and is skilled and trained in the teaching of the noble ones. They’ve seen good persons, and are skilled and trained in the teaching of the good persons

They properly attend: ‘This is suffering’ … ‘This is the origin of suffering’ … ‘This is the cessation of suffering’ … ‘This is the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering’. And as they do so, they give up three fetters: identity view, wavering mental state, and heteronomous morality (morality that based on commendment) . These are called the defilements that should be given up by seeing.
*

May true Buddha teaching last for long time, for the benefit of people who want to hear it and practice it.

May beings gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and Ariya Sangha.

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Thanks bhante :pray::pray:, please correct me bhante this is how I understand your writing in that quote

So past life ignorance and choice condition current life consciousness and current life ignorance and Choice condition future life consciousness, do I misinterpret you here ?

If current life ignorance ceases then current life choice will cease since by “choice” Buddha means all non functional choices done by non arahants

If current life choice ceases then future life consciousness will cease

Bhante what I don’t understand here is if we follow DO then craving must cease in future life since the consciousness ceases in future life too

I also want to ask about momentariness bhante
This is my current understanding bhante :pray::pray:, Consciousness are conditioned by both choice and ignorance(indirectly)

ignorance A arises > choice A arises → consciousness A arise, ignorance A ceases → choice A ceases → consciousness A ceases, ignorance B arises → choice B arises → consciousness B arises ,etc am I right bhante ?

Thanks again
May bhante be happy and in peace :smiling_face_with_three_hearts::smiling_face_with_three_hearts:

i think current life and previous life still has a connection but they are different like how apple tree and its early seed form are different with each other but there’s still connection or continuity there, the past life conditions current life, there’s no tree without seed, there’s no current life without past life, there’s a continuity between life

Continuing this simile I found that when current life exists past life don’t exists I mean there’s no way you could talk to your past life aggregates, he/she already died, the same thing is found on tree, when a tree exists the previously independent seed + water don’t exist anymore they die I say for they become something else entirely called a tree

So there’s no current five aggregates without past 5 aggregates being ceased

And no 5 aggregates arise with similar features like their previous aggregates if they do it’s just a coincidence

And regarding what the Buddha said I think Buddha means that consciousness arise and pass away, the next consciousness which arises may not be similar with current consciousness which already ceased, I don’t think the Buddha denies that consciousness is co dependently conditioned by choice and ignorance, so that’s what I think it’s very possible that I am wrong though :face_with_hand_over_mouth::face_with_hand_over_mouth:

Thanks to you too joe for your patience in teaching me :pleading_face:
May you stay happy Joe :smiling_face_with_three_hearts::smiling_face_with_three_hearts:

Yes, quite right.

The cessation of craving + grasping (upādāna) + existence (bhava) is equivalent to the cessation of choices. So you could change the DO sequence as follows:

Ignorance > craving > grasping > existence > consciousness … choices > rebirth > death

Also notice that it is not just ignorance/craving that seems to end twice in the cessation sequence. The same is true for rebirth. First rebirth ends when consciousness does not arise, and then again when there is no craving/grasping/existence. Clearly this makes no sense. To make sense of this we need to see the 12-factor DO as a device that best explains the arising sequence, not the cessation sequence. (But the 10-factor DO explains both sequences equally well.) In other words, the cessation sequence is secondary, and should not be understood literally. Interpretation is required. The cessation sequence stops at the first potential rebirth.

Yes, I would say this is partly true. Consciousness is affected by choices in this very life. I mean, we experience this all the time. It is the sum total of how our consciousness is affected that then decides how we are reborn, that is, where consciousness is stationed in a new existence. This is the rebirth aspect of the third factor.

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