The interpretation above does not agree with how kaṇṭaka (thorn) is used in that sutta. See
Is Sound Heard When Engaging in the Jhānas？.pdf (70.2 KB)
I see that you prefer not to answer. That’s ok.
In case you don’t know, Aj Brahm does not follow Aj Chah’s meditation teachings.
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I am sorry, but the context in the sutta makes it clear what a thorn means. But this has been discussed here before. There is no point in endlessly rehashing old discussions.
I have no idea what you mean.
The right person to talk about this with is Ajahn Btrahm. It’s easy for you to get access to him whenever he is in Malaysia.
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Someone I know personally and trust has already asked him years ago.
You may not be interested in returning to the conversation, in which case, all power to you! I just stumbled across something related to MN 128 which I thought was relevant to our discussion on pre-jhāna states and nimittas/the divine eye. This is from a book by Ajahn Mahā Boowa, a famous Thai forest meditator who clearly seems to have had much experience with samādhi. All bolding is mine for the sake of clarity:
In Upacāra Samādhi, when the citta has dropped into a calm state it does not remain in that state, but partially withdraws from it to follow and get to know about various things which have come into contact with the heart. [The author contrasts this with “appaṇā samādhi” which is stable, firm, and unwavering — equivalent more to the actual jhāna states]
–
Sometimes something arises concerning oneself and one sees a vision (nimitta) which is sometimes good and sometimes bad, but in the first stage the nimitta will generally be something about oneself. If one is not careful this can lead to trouble, because nimittas which arise from this kind of samādhi are of innumerable varieties. … [T]here are a lot of people whose natures are timid and easily frightened, and Upacāra Samādhi may do harm to the citta of a person of this type because this class of samādhi is of many different kinds and many frightening experiences can occur. …
–
As for external nimittas which come and go, one may or may not know whether a nimitta is external or whether it arises from oneself. But when one has become skilled with internal nimittas which arise from oneself, one will be able to know which are external nimittas. External nimittas are associated with many different happenings of people, animals, pretas, bhūtas (ghosts of the dead), the son of a deva, a devatā, Indra, or Brahma, any of which may at that time be associated with one’s samādhi, even as one talks to a guest who comes on a visit. When such incidents occur they may last for a long or short time …
Notice here how, as I pointed to above, the author is saying that the experience of light and forms in meditation may be either internal or external, and that the difference between these two can be difficult to distinguish. Both give rise to the same types of reactions (fear, excitement, etc.) and should be dealt with roughly the same way in terms of one’s emotional responses. He also says that the external nimittas (vision of external forms) can be like conversing with a guest, just as the Buddha describes his “light and vision of forms” which he then “conversed with those deities,” the same language used in MN 128 for seeing light/forms in meditation.
Note that he describes this as all being a phenomenon in “upacāra samādhi” which is a state of concentration before attaining jhāna. He is describing a series of hurdles and challenges — including wacky experiences of the divine eye — that one must overcome to be able to settle the mind into 'appaṇā samādhi*, just as the Buddha describes settling into jhāna in MN 128.
Of course, the writings of meditators thousands of years later are not to be taken on the same authority of the suttas. My point in this post is that what this meditator is describing is extremely close to what is described in MN 128, and it matches with my interpretation that that may be referring to the divine eye.
As I said above and before, this experience could be internal or external. The experience and the necessary response really end up being the same for jhāna, and it is not so necessary to distinguish the nature of the light/forms unless one is specifically cultivating the psychic powers, divine eye, etc. No matter what it is, MN 128 is describing this experience of transitioning from the desire world of the five senses to the subtle rūpaloka, and the wacky things that happen along the way.
It seems that Anuruddha had no problem with seeing these internal or external visions (since he had a propensity for the divine eye), but he did need advice in settling into deep jhāna and attaining awakening from it. This is reminscent of the descriptions of what can happen in “Upacāra Samādhi” from the Thai Forest meditators, in that one is stuck in hindrances or distractions with the divine eye outside of and before deeper, more stable samādhi.
As a side note, the Chinese parallel to the AN of seeing light/forms and discussing with deities comes right after the Āgama parallel to MN 128 (MA 72). This indicates that both the Pāli commentarial tradition and most likely the Sarvāstivādin traditions interpreted ‘light and forms’ as related to the divine eye. I think the explanation that these are all of the same nature — visions appear in preliminary samādhi, whether internal or external — is a satisfying middle ground. MN 128 is applicable to our practice whether it is the divine eye or not.
(P.S. I feel your enthusiasm about the practical relevance of this sutta to the experience of the light/forms of pre-jhānic states, and I share that! It’s amazing the suttas provide these discussions and descriptions, and I don’t want to down play it. Just adding to the understanding of the scope of the text 
)
Much mettā! 
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Hello Venerable,
I find it very interesting that you think Rupa can be totally mental, because most of the time, the first aggregate is considered to refer exclusively to the physical aspect of our experience linked to the 5 senses. In this topic, Sujato talks a bit about this. Could you please recommend a document (e.g. an article) about what you think Rupa really is?
Also, I’ve read some of your articles and I find you very interesting, thank you Venerable for your work. Please, do you know if there’s a site centralizing all your articles? For example, I found your article Jhana and Lokuttarajjhana on Dhammatalks, but not on bswa.org. I’m afraid I’m missing some of your papers that may be of interest to me.
Thanks in advance, and thanks again Venerable for your work, and I must say that I also really enjoy your Dhamma talks because (among other things) I find that you give off a reassuring aura full of kindness when you speak!
Ajahn, do you mean that rūpa here is a mental image a.k.a. nimitta?
And, is this rūpa sensed by mana instead of cakkhu?
And, is this also the rūpa that the Buddha spoke of in SN22.59?
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Oh I see. Thank you, Bhante.
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Is it sound is a thorn or noise?
sadda
masculine
- sound; noise; a word
If someone is mediating in a forest they will hear lots of sounds. A loud noise however might pull one from Jhana, and indeed we see the Buddha preferring silence over a racket.
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This then still leaves unexplained how seclusion from sensual pleasures (I take this to mean bodily seclusion) must necessarily mean “without the 5 senses? It doesn’t follow at all so far Bhante.
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Interesting thanks!
By the way, Venerable Sunyo has said that he’s temporarily stopping replying to the topic as he’s currently in retirement (rainy season), but he’ll be back on the topic after retirement to see if there are any interesting replies, so maybe he’ll reply to you later.
Speaking of your topic, do you know if there’s an English translation of MA 72? It’s the parallel of MN 128. Reading a google translation of the Indonesian translation of the Chinese version, I get the impression that the text is interesting and longer than MN 128, with multiple references to the “internal eye” appearing and disappearing in connection with “forms” and “light”, and with references to jhanas which seem to be presented as a means of stabilizing the internal eye, forms and lights rather than the other way around, and this may give the impression that the Buddha first practised the divine eye without the jhanas, then understood afterwards that concentrating on the jhanas is useful for stabilizing the divine eye. Of course, a google translation of a translation of the Chinese version doesn’t allow me to conclude anything, but just to think that there might be something interesting to study with MA 72. And of course I don’t know anything about Agama, I’m just making unfounded speculations to give ideas.
Here are some extracts from MA 72 from google translation:
Venerable Anuruddha replied:
‘The Blessed One, in this way we are always together in harmony, in comfort and without conflict, in one mind, in one teacher, mixed like water and milk, we reach a state of humanity, a special state, a peaceful abode in tranquility Blessed One, I attained the internal light and then the vision of forms; but the vision of the forms and the internal light immediately disappeared again.’
The Blessed One said:
'Anuruddha, you have not penetrated that sign, that is, the mark of attaining the internal light and the seeing of forms. Then the vision of forms and internal light immediately ceases to exist.
'Earlier, Anuruddha, when I had not attained the realization of the incomparable perfect enlightenment, I also attained internal light and vision of forms; but that vision of forms and internal light soon vanishes again.
'Anuruddha, it occurred to me, “What is the defilement in my mind that has caused my concentration to fall and the internal eye to disappear? With the disappearance of the internal eye , the experience of the brilliant light and the vision of forms which I had previously attained, the vision of forms and the internal light immediately ceased to exist.”
'Anuruddha, by practicing diligently, without heedlessness, with a calm and peaceful body, with right mindfulness and right understanding, without confusion, I attained concentration and one-pointedness of mind.
'Anuruddha, it occurred to me, “By practicing diligently, without heedlessness, with a calm and peaceful body, with right mindfulness and right understanding, without confusion, I have attained concentration and one-pointedness of mind.”
’ I thought thus, “What is not in this world, can I see it and know it?” These doubts, these defilements, arise in my mind. Because of this defilement of doubt, my concentration falls and the internal eye disappears; with the disappearance of the internal eye , the experience of the brilliant light and the vision of forms that I had previously attained, the vision of forms and the internal light disappeared again.
'Anuruddha, right then and there I certainly thought thus, “In my mind the defilements of doubt should not arise!”
(…)
'Anuruddha, right then and there I certainly thought thus, "In my mind the corruptions of doubt should not arise, the corruptions of inattention should not arise, the corruptions of bodily inertia that affect perception should not arise, the corruptions of sloth and torpor should not arise, the corruptions of excessive enthusiasm should not arise, the defilement of lack of enthusiasm should not arise, the defilement of fear should not arise, the defilement of delight should not arise, the defilement of conceit should not arise, the defilement of diversity perception should not arise, and the defilement of not contemplating forms should not arise either!”
'Anuruddha, since I am determined not to give rise to these defilements, I go to live in a remote and secluded place and practice diligently with a mind free from indolence. By practicing diligently with a mind free from indolence while dwelling in a far and secluded place, I attained internal light and vision of forms.
'Anuruddha, if the defilement of doubt arises in my mind, then I purify my mind of it; if the defilements of inattention,…bodily inertia affecting perception,…slowness and torpor,…excessive zeal,…lack of zeal,…fear,…excitement,…conceit,…perception of diversity,…do not contemplate forms arise in my mind, then I purify my mind of it.
'Anuruddha, I further thought thus, “I will cultivate the three stages of concentration: I will cultivate concentration with directed awareness and continuous contemplation ; I will practice concentration without directed awareness and only continuous contemplation ; I will practice concentration without directed awareness and continuous recollection ."
'Again, Anuruddha, I cultivate these three stages of concentration: I cultivate concentration with directed awareness and continuous contemplation ; I practice concentration without directed awareness and only continuous contemplation ; and I practice concentration without directed awareness and continuous recollection .
'If I practice concentration with directed awareness and continuous recollection , then my mind inclines to concentration without directed awareness and only continuous contemplation . In this way I am sure not to lose that knowledge and vision.
'In this way, Anuruddha, knowing it thus, throughout the day, throughout the night, throughout the day and night, I practice concentration with directed awareness and continuous contemplation .
'Anuruddha, at that time I was doing the practice of remaining in this stillness. If I practice concentration with directed awareness and continuous recollection , then my mind inclines to concentration without directed awareness and only continuous contemplation . In this way I am sure not to lose that knowledge and vision.
'In this way, Anuruddha, knowing it thus, throughout the day, throughout the night, throughout the day and night, I practice concentration with directed awareness and continuous contemplation . Anuruddha, at that time I was doing the practice of remaining in this stillness.
'Anuruddha, if I practice concentration without directed awareness and only continuous recollection , then my mind inclines to concentration with directed awareness and continuous contemplation . In this way I am sure not to lose that knowledge and vision.
'In this way, Anuruddha, knowing it thus, throughout the day, throughout the night, throughout the day and night, I practice concentration without directed awareness and only continuous contemplation . Anuruddha, at that time I was doing the practice of remaining in this stillness.
'If I practice concentration without directed awareness and only continuous recollection , then my mind inclines to concentration without directed awareness and continuous recollection . In this way I am sure not to lose that knowledge and vision.
'In this way, Anuruddha, knowing it thus, throughout the day, throughout the night, throughout the day and night, I practice concentration without directed awareness and only continuous contemplation . Anuruddha, at that time I was doing the practice of remaining in this stillness.
'If I practice concentration without directed awareness and continuous recollection , then my mind inclines to concentration with directed awareness and continuous recollection . In this way I am sure not to lose that knowledge and vision.
'In this way, Anuruddha, knowing it thus, throughout the day, throughout the night, throughout the day and night, I cultivate concentration without directed awareness and continuous contemplation . Anuruddha, at that time I was doing the practice of remaining in this stillness.
'If I practice concentration without directed awareness and continuous recollection , then my mind inclines to concentration without directed awareness and only continuous contemplation . In this way I am sure not to lose that knowledge and vision.
(…)
'Anuruddha, sometimes I gain knowledge of the infinite internal light and the infinite vision of forms. Anuruddha, I thought thus, “For what reason, for what cause, have I acquired the infinite knowledge of internal light and the infinite vision of forms?”
'Anuruddha, I further thought thus, “If I enter into immeasurable concentration, then because of gaining immeasurable concentration the internal eye is endowed with immeasurable purity. Because the internal eye is imbued with immeasurable purity, I gain knowledge of immeasurable internal light and immeasurable vision of forms."
'In this way, Anuruddha, knowing it thus, throughout the day, throughout the night, throughout the day and night, I acquired the infinite knowledge of the internal light and the infinite vision of forms. Anuruddha, at that time I was doing the practice of remaining in this stillness.
I don’t know what you think, but personally, it doesn’t seem aberrant to me to say that during jhana, sukha is purely mental and is purely produced by the mind, but that this sukha is nevertheless felt at the level of our body. It’s a bit as if sukha were a kind of hallucination which we would feel existed at the level of our entire physical body (including the tips of our toes), when in truth it’s just a mental production.
I don’t know if this interpretation is true, but it seems to me that saying sukha is purely mental doesn’t go against “bodily jhanas” (= jhanas where we still feel the physical body).
Bhikkhu Analayo and Roderick Bucknell have translated the MA and DA for BDK America and their translations are available for free in PDF form. You can find MA 72 in Volume II: The Madhyama Āgama (Middle-Length Discourses), Vol. II – BDK America
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Extremely interesting, thank you!
On page 736 (on a note), this book (written by Venerable Analayo) comparing Pali suttas and Agamas gives an argument against the idea that MN 128 speaks of the divine eye:
This is not the way the commentary understands this passage, however, as Ps IV 207,11 takes the expression “vision of forms” to stand for seeing forms with the divine eye, dassanañ ca rūpānan ti dibbacakkhunā rūpadassanañ ca sañjānāma. The commentarial explanation could be inspired by AN 8:64 at
AN IV 302,14, where to see forms and perceive lights leads to being able to converse with devas. In the
present context, however, the commentarial explanation does not seem to fit the context, pace Schlingloff 1985: 330, since the exercise of the divine eye requires the concentrative stability of the fourth jhāna, whereas in MN 128 and MĀ 72 the level of concentration achieved through stabilizing the vision of
lights and forms is evidently lower, leading at MN 128 at MN III 162,14 and MĀ 72 at T I 538c3 to
concentration with initial and sustained mental application, savitakka savicāra samādhi/有覺有觀定,
which corresponds to the first jhāna only.
I think it’s a good argument. This book also gives other arguments. It starts talking about MA 72 (parallel to MN 128) on page 731.
Incidentally, this passage is an argument in favor of visuddhimagga jhanas, page 736 :
This list of mental obstructions does not mention the first
two of the five hindrances, sensual desire and aversion. Their absence indicates that the
meditative development described in the present discourse sets in at a more advanced
stage, when these two comparatively gross mental defilements have been subdued and
a minimum degree of mental tranquillity has already been established. It is precisely at
this point, when the gross hindrances of sensual desire and aversion have been overcome and the mind becomes increasingly concentrated, that according to the Visuddhimagga’s account the mental sign, the nimitta, will manifest to the meditator.250 Thus it
seems that the present passage covers the same phenomena described in the Visuddhimagga in terms of a nimitta that needs to be stabilized and mastered in order to be able
to attain jhāna.
Thank you again !!!
Sorry I can’t. But it is fairly obvious that we can imagine or dream about sights, and even touches. This is mental rūpa.
Most of them should be on the BSWA website. The one jhāna and lokuttarajjhāna is missing because it is copyrighted. The only other copyright article I have written is on the nature of Nibbāna, which you can find here.
Thanks for the kind feedback!
No, the mental image is gone at this stage. It’s an even more subtle aspect of perception.
Yes.
It is included in the rūpa described at SN22.59.
All sound in principle, but noise is obviously more problematic.
There is the freedom that comes from eliminating kāmacchanda, “sense desire”. This happens before jhāna and is a requirement for entering jhāna. Then there is the freedom of seclusion, vivicceva, which is the freedom from the five senses within a jhāna.
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Yes, I see what you mean, but it’s true that I used to think that for rupa what really counted was the link with actual physical “sense organs”, so I thought that the “sensory perceptions” of dreams didn’t count as rupa because they aren’t linked to physical “sense organs”
Thank you very much! We are very lucky here to be able to discuss with scholars like you, thank you again. I find that the arguments of Venerable Sujato, Venerable Sunyo, your arguments, etc., are really often very very strong and powerful.
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It’s secluded from sensual pleasures though Bhante, not the 5 senses. Nothing in that suggests one isn’t aware on some level of the other senses at all. So far the only reason for it meaning that is in already thinking it means that, it seems to me.
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If I can weigh in.
We have examples in the suttas of meditators “one upping” each other during absorption.
For example we have one (I can’t recall, but it may have been Alara Kalama) being said to have meditated (not sure in which jhana) amongst a royal entourage of elephants, carts, etcetera. passing by - and he did not hear it or see it.
So, the other meditator (could have been the Buddha himself) is said to have meditated during a lightening storm which killed three people - and he did not notice.
I’m not always one to assume, but I don’t think total non perception of sound is the meaning of thorn. As I write this post I’m surrounded by various sounds which I’m sure I’m taking little note of.
Like you say, in the forest there are many sounds. I’d go out on a limb and say one can reach very minimal stages of absorption without paying much mind to surrounding sounds (especially in a forest environment).
It’s when a person comes by and addresses you (or something like that) where the absorption is broken or stifled.
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The sutta says that three types of pain are not present during jhana:
- The pain and sadness connected with sensual pleasures.
- The pain and sadness connected with the unskillful.
- The pain and sadness connected with the skillful.
But for the moment I don’t see how this sutta explicitly talks about physical pain.
I’m having a bit of trouble understanding your post: is your reason your interpretation of Pali? Would you have translated it differently, with “objects of the senses” rather than “sensual pleasure”?
In this book, Venerable Analayo writes the following about Upakkilesa Sutta:
In the Upakkilesa-sutta the experience of inner light (and
forms) only serves to reflect whether the mind is becoming more
concentrated or else has succumbed to some minor defilement
that obstructs entry into absorption. The discourse does not give
the impression that the light itself should become the object
of meditation, in fact no object of meditation is described at
all. This holds similarly for the standard account of absorption
attainment in the discourses, which describes the condition of the
mind by listing the mental factors characteristic of a particular
level of absorption but without any additional reference to an
object employed for entering absorption
(…)
By pointing out that the description in the Upakkilesa-sutta
does not present the experience of light as the object of the
practice, I do not intend to imply that there is anything wrong
in focusing on the light, once it has become naturally bright and
stable. My point is only that this mode of practice is not evident
in the Upakkilesa-sutta and, although for many meditators it can
be a very powerful approach, it need not be considered the only
possible route into absorption
In this book, Venerable Analaya seems to put the importance of MN 128 in achieving absorption into perspective.
Incidentally, I noticed that in this book and this article, he conceives of Anapanasati not as a simple focusing of attention on one point of the breath, but as a more open and flexible experience of our experience.
Incidentally, a little anecdote, here Venerable Analayo explains in this video that a few years ago he had a tendency to get angry quickly, and he practiced focused concentration at a point on the breath: he says that this focused concentration increased his tendency to anger.
Also, he says something very similar to Venerable @kumara 's idea that samadhi is “composure” rather than concentration, here.