If jhana is total absorption without physical sensation, why is pain only abandoned in the fourth jhana?

Have you read Ānalayo’s work I referred to, including the works he refers to? I’m not sure if I have much more to add.

Anyway, in particular late is the list of jhana factors which include things never mentioned in other suttas to be part of jhanas, but happening as similar lists in the Abhidhamma. I’m talking for example about “placing and keeping and rapture and bliss and unification of mind; contact, feeling, perception, intention, mind, enthusiasm, decision, energy, mindfulness, equanimity, and application of mind”. The part after the semicolon at least is Abhidhammic. You can even see an indication in the Pali because the ‘ca’ (and) is suddenly missing: vitakko ca vicāro ca pīti ca sukhañca cittekaggatā ca, phasso vedanā saññā cetanā cittaṁ chando adhimokkho vīriyaṁ sati upekkhā manasikāro.

There is no parallel to the sutta in other languages, which makes it hard to say what the original would have looked like, if there was one.

Anyway, read Ānalayo’s stuff. It’s for free online.

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Just an open question to the thread. In a vivid dream, you can see sights or feel touches, even feel that you are in your body, moving through the dream world. In lucid dreams, you can even be aware that you’re dreaming.

Do you consider this physical, or as happening in the mind sense? Is a dream a state of being absorbed away /secluded from the physical body?

The more I read and re-read these debates, I keep wondering “but what do you mean when you say X :thinking:

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Thanks very much, Bhante.
I’m looking forward to reading the book you recommended by Ven. Ānalayo. Haven’t read that one yet.

I see what you mean about the Pāli and how it points to a later addition.

:pray:

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@Sunyo

Venerable, please, I’d like your opinion on the famous AN 3.63 (Venāgapura Sutta). This sutta seems to say that one can walk in jhâna. What’s your opinion?
Thank you in advance.

Wrong Samadhi would be like that in DN1, where the Jhanas are clung to. So, what makes a Jhana right or wrong is how it’s viewed rather than the experience itself.

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I didn’t know this sutta was that famous. :wink: But sure, since you ask so kindly, how can I refuse? :smiley: (No promises for the future, though. I spend a bit too much time on this debate already, although it’s good to have all the main arguments of both sides in one place.)

I think this sutta actually also provides some little evidence for the disembodied jhanas. People always focus on one particular line, but overlook some other things. I’ll share my evidence at the end, first the line.

Venerable Analayo actually explains it in the same work I referred to, in footnotes on p85 and p123. Just like one can’t contemplate inside the jhanas, one also can not walk when in the jhanas, is what he says. I agree with Venerable Analayo on both accounts. Analayo’s footnotes are a bit terse, though, and I don’t know if he explained the grammatical details elsewhere. So here’s what’s going on in my opinion.

First the Buddha says he’s living a simple life in a forest, going for alms every day to a certain town, and that he’s attaining the jhanas. (It seems like he wasn’t teaching at those times.) Then there is a line which Bhikkhu Bodhi translates: “Then, brahmin, when I am in such a state (evaṃbhūto), if I walk back and forth, on that occasion my walking back and forth is celestial.”

Bhūto, which Venerable Bodhi translates as a present participle, is actually a past participle. But it is used broadly throughout the suttas, with varying meaning. Sometimes a present participle is an alright translation, but only when it has the sense of “being” in general, not “while I am in such a state” which I would say is too specific. It’s more like “while I am attaining such states in my life”.

So Bhante Sujato translates it as “when I’m practicing like this”, by which he means the Buddha is practicing those states in general, not that he’s actually in them while he’s walking. That seems to align with Monier-Williams dictionary which glosses evaṃbhūto as “of such a quality or nature”. In other words, when the Buddha is “of such a quality or nature” that he can easily attain the jhanas, then he walks “celestial”.

I think Sujato’s translation is better, also because the word “state” in Bodhi’s “when I am in such a state” is not in the Pali. Evaṃbhūto, literally “been such”, does not really refer to the jhanas. It refers to the Buddha himself being “such”. But what is that “such”? Is it only attaining the jhanas? Only the fourth which was mentioned just before? That would be the case if we take it all as a simple sequential sequence. Or does it include the whole passage, including him living in the forest, going for alms and such? I see no reason why it would only refer to the jhanas, because again, evaṃbhūto means “while I am being such”, rather than “while these states are such”.

At the end the Buddha says: “When I’m practicing like this, if I walk, at that time my walking is heavenly. […] if I stand, at that time my standing is heavenly. […] if I sit, at that time my sitting is heavenly. […] if I lie down, at that time my lying is heavenly.” To me in general the walking refers to going on almsround (which the sutta says he does before attaining jhanas), the standing is perhaps waiting for alms, the sitting is the meditation, and the lying down is his sleeping (and you can’t be in jhanas while sleeping, I think we all agree). I don’t really know why else he would lie down; apart from when he had aches in his later years, I don’t think he really ever did so for other reasons than sleeping.

Alternatively and perhaps more simply, bhūto may also be more literally translated as a past participle, meaning “when I have been such”, i.e. have been in the jhanas. A somewhat similar use of bhūto is found in SN46.30: “For in the past, venerable sir, when I was still a householder (agārika-bhūto), I did not have much concern for the Dhamma or the Sangha.” Here bhūto refers to a past that no longer is present. The PTS Dictionary also lists under bhūta: “pp. in predicative use […]: what has been or happened; viz mātu-bhūtā having been his mother.”

So, while there may be some ambiguity in evaṃbhūto, it’s certainly not a clear home-run for the embodied jhana view.

Now, the text provides some support for the disembodied view as well. People like to bring up the one line to argue one can attain jhanas while walking, but notice when the Buddha himself describes his practice, he doesn’t actually do that! He says: “Brahmin, when I am living supported by a village or town, I robe up in the morning and, taking my bowl and robe, enter the town or village for alms. After the meal, on my return from almsround, I enter within a forest. I gather up some grass or leaves into a pile and sit down cross-legged, setting my body straight, and establishing mindfulness in front of me.” Then, only after sitting down does he enter the jhanas. So we have to ask, if he could attain the jhanas while walking, why didn’t he do so on the way in or out of the village? :confused: Especially if that was so strongly indicated by evaṃbhūto in the same sutta? :slight_smile:

Of course, this is not a clear-cut evidence for the embodied view either. Because one can argue that perhaps he just didn’t feel like entering jhana while walking, or whatever. I wouldn’t be convinced by that particular argument. Maybe someone has a better one. But it is at least really interesting that in the very same sutta used to argue that one can attain jhana while walking, the Buddha himself actually says he sits down! :thinking:

And that’s not just here. There are a few other references where the Buddha either sits or lies down before attaining the jhanas, and none other where he’s walking. I belief it is quite telling as well. Some suggest that in jhana you can walk, do all sorts of things, supposedly even when you’re a puthujana. But then why would of all beings the Buddha apparently have to sit down? Again, why wasn’t he in jhana while he was walking in and out of town? :thinking: Well, I have answers to this, but I’m asking it of others.

In the embodied view of jhanas vivicceva kāmehi is interpreted to mean something like being without sense desires, or being generally aloof from some unspecified “sensuality” or just not interested in sense objects. But while walking, the Buddha already was away from those things. So he had already fulfilled both the prerequisites for the first jhana: vivvicceva kāmehi and being without the hindrances (since enlightened beings have no more hindrances). But still he wasn’t in jhāna. Why not? :confused:

I think the phrase means to be fully (eva) separated (vivicca) from sense experiences (kāmehi), moving the mind away from the five senses. Then, when the Buddha was on almsround, he had only fulfilled one of the prerequisites, being without the hindrances. To fulfill the other he had to turn his mind inwards, away from the experiences of the five sense. To do that, he had to sit down. To me, that makes sense on many levels.

I hope all this also makes sense to some others, at least to the extent that they give this kind of meditation a serious try.

PS. It would also be difficult to walk while you’re not breathing. :wink: And in the fourth jhana the breath has ceased, say a handful of suttas.

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If you’d ask me, that is not at all what being secluded from the senses is like. It is impossible to explain in words what the difference is, though.

Visions in dreams, although nowadays we say they come from the mind, perhaps in the Buddha’s time may have been classed under the sense of sight still. That is hypothetical, and it probably wasn’t, but it feels to me like it should.

In dreams it almost feels like you’re looking through your eyes (in mine anyway), but that’s not the case in deep meditation. Often people perceive certain lights before the jhanas (as in MN128). These lights people might momentarily think are coming through the eyes, and they may even think it’s going to burn their eyes, it’s so bright. This is quite common for people. But they quickly realize it wasn’t the eyes, and there’s no problem.

But in jhana there is no such perception. It’s very different. But I can’t exactly tell you how it’s different. :smile: Because whatever I say, you’ll likely relate it to the five senses again.

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Well, that‘s possible. At the same time, by saying that, you regard them as the same kind of jhana the Buddha taught, don’t you?

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Sunyo. I did not read anything compelling in Analayo’s book. On page 123 Analayo merely offered Ajahn Brahm’s opinion from a book where Ajahn Brahm often displays questionable use of terminology such as the words comprehension & contemplation. Obviously there is sampajana & anupassi in jhana per the literal definition of the 3rd jhana and per sutta such as AN 4.124. This anupassi does not mean thinking. It means closely watching & perceiving which occurs in jhana. If a jhana cannot be contemplated it cannot be later described. While in jhana the jhana is seen as not self & alien; the vibrations of rapture are seen as impermanent; the bliss of jhana is felt to be unsatisfactory compared to the stillness. These are direct anupassi in jhana.

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Agree. I translate it as “one who observes”, or simply “observer”.

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Hi Nickelii, :wave:

I’m afraid we’re talking past one another a bit. In the post you replied to I was talking about the historical authenticity of one particular text, is this what you’re concerned about or not?

Venerable Analayo also gives various other arguments for why contemplation didn’t happen while Sāriputta was in the jhanas, not “merely” a note to Ajahn Brahm. May I suggest you read a bit closer. If the arguments aren’t convincing, that’s fine, you wouldn’t be the first to think so. But, no offense, I think it’s a bit unfair to reduce them to just one note. (A note which I by the way agree isn’t a great argument at all, since it’s a sort of an appeal to authority, and isn’t about what the suttas say.)

I also don’t understand why we’re discussing anupassi all of a sudden. Who said that it means thinking, exactly? Maybe I missed it. So maybe we have to rewind a bit.

Anyway, whatever follows the jhana in the texts does not happen while one is in the jhana, is my understanding. The verb phrase is upasampajja viharati, literally “having attained, one dwells”. This “dwelling” isn’t necessarily in the jhana. You can also “dwell” or “live” in a general sense “having attained” the jhana at some point. If you attain a jhana in the morning, for example, then in the afternoon you still “dwell, having attained” the jhana.

A similar construction occurs in MN70:

“Here some person contacts (phusitvā) with the body and abides (viharati) in those liberations that are peaceful and immaterial, transcending forms, and his taints are destroyed by his seeing with wisdom.” (Bodhi)

(For the discussion on bodily vs non-bodily, note also that Bodhi’s “contact with the body” (kāyena) in the formless attainments is definitely not a right translation. I also don’t like ‘immaterial’ because it assumes that rūpa = matter, which is too simplistic. I think he changed it in later translations, anyway.)

Alternative translation of same passage:

It’s a person who has direct meditative experience of the peaceful liberations that are formless, transcending form. And, having seen with wisdom, their defilements have come to an end. (Sujato)

The verbs here are phusitvā viharati, an identical structure, with the same meaning as upasampajja viharati. It means they “live” or “dwell” (viharati) having experienced (phusitvā) those formless states at some point, as Sujato has understood. Then, having experienced them, using contemplation their defilements are ended. If we’d think the verbs imply it all happens at the same time, this would mean they attained all the formless attainment at the same time their defilements end. That would be impossible, I think you can agree.

Likewise, when a contemplation follows the upasampajja viharati of the jhanas, those contemplations don’t happen at the same time one is in the jhana.

(Edit after discussion with senior monk: I now think of this a bit differently.)

If a jhana cannot be contemplated it cannot be later described.

This doesn’t make sense to me regardless of what the jhanas are. Because we can remember things. Have you never described or contemplated anything in hindsight? It’s something people tend to do all the time, and there’s nothing unique about the jhanas that makes it impossible to remember them. In fact, I’d say that is the only way to contemplate them. This is why AN5.28 says one aspect of developing right samādhi is “reviewing”. How would you interpret this?

Thanks for raising the issues. But I said before I didn’t want to go too deeply into this aspect of contemplation, and now I did it anyway. :laughing: So please excuse me if this would be my last reply on the topic.

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Yes. The experience is the same. How it’s viewed (with clinging or without) is what makes them Right or Wrong. So, I wouldn’t say experience x makes Jhana Right or Wrong. Rather you could say that one is Jhana and one isn’t. Problem is both the absorbed and non-absorbed Jhana are said to be full of rapture and ease apart from sensual pleasures. Perhaps both are Jhana? Could it be that Theravada got it right with Samantha Jhanas and Vipassana Jhanas? :man_shrugging:t2:

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Then you’ll have to argue with Aj Brahm who says the Buddha discovered jhana.

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Thank you very much! I’m sorry if you’re giving too much time to this debate, but your arguments are really very good and very useful to move beings forward on the path! Thank you for being so active and writing very high quality answers. I’m sure that what you write on this topic - and what the other contributors write - will help a lot of people and will be consulted by a lot of people now and in the future. Thank you again Venerable.

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Happy to do so. That isn’t correct, as DN 1 shows.

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Hello Venerable,

I remember you saying that samatha and vipassana are practiced together. However, you also say that jhana is absorption without physical sensation. So what do you think samatha (jhana) looks like when practised at the same time as vipassana? A priori, in a jhâna without physical sensation, you can’t practice vipassana on physical sensation. So vipassana is practiced on something else, such as what? The jhâna factors?

I ask this question because in the Pa-Auk system, the object of jhana concentration is nimitta. Now, nimitta is considered an unreal concept (i.e. it’s not an ultimate reality but just a perception). If we stop concentrating on nimitta, then there is no more jhâna. This is why Pa-Auk considers that vipassana cannot be performed in jhana: vipassana is performed on real objects, whereas samatha is performed on unreal objects.

Thanks again

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Ajahn Chah says,

Wrong samādhi is where the mind enters calm and there’s no awareness at all. One could sit for two hours or even all day but the mind doesn’t know where it’s been or what’s happened. It doesn’t know anything.

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Hey, bhante. Sorry to interrupt your exchange with Ceisiwr, but that’s the exact same quote I used to explain wrong samādhi in a class! :slight_smile: Happy to see we agree on something at least!

Because maybe it’s beneficial from time to time to focus on the agreement instead of the differences.

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I don’t remember having put it this way.

Let me put it like this: Samatha and Vipassanā are qualities developed in meditation, not practices or meditation methods.

If you practice meditation, let’s say, breath meditation, or metta meditation, or even something that’s called vipassana meditation (even if the Buddha didn’t use that term in this form), and if you practice it well, the qualities of Samatha and Vipassanā are developed in you. And they are developed together; if one is growing, the other one is growing as well. You become both calmer and see clearer.

But basically, I am just repeating or paraphrasing what Ajahn Brahmali said in the essay I have linked above in this thread, and it’s perhaps nicer to read it in Ajahn’s own words. And also consider Venerable @Sunyo’s explanations above which are perhaps even more nuanced (I didn’t read the entire thread, but am just referring to Bhante’s first reply here).

There isn’t anything more I have to say on the topic.

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We can all quote teachers who agree with us, although I could probably find a quote from Ajahn Chah that contradicts your view Bhante. Also note that Ajahn Chah says there that samadhi with no awareness is wrong samadhi. I don’t agree with that definition, but either way it’s not referring to the absorbed kind of meditation since there is awareness there.

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