If rebirth is true, what's one's first birth?

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Traditionally, the number line begins with zero and moves in both directions. I don’t begin financial records with -$∞, I start with $0. If I spend money that I don’t have, then I move into the negative, but I do not start with negative infinity dollars.

I’m not sure this relates to rebirth, but perhaps karma… people would start with zero karma, and either gain positive or negative karma as events progress.

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Exactly! We were talking about time, so t=0 is the place to start: right NOW, as @AdrianMagno said :smile:

And if I start with 0 karma dollars in my account, I better start earning some positive karma fast! :wink:

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Hi, this thread unfolding reminded me of the Buddha’s words on uncertain issues and His simile of a poisoned arrow in MN 63.https://suttacentral.net/mn63/en/sujato
Enjoy. :slightly_smiling_face:

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There is no “first birth”. You can’t make something from nothing, matter always existed, it just changes form, like a leaf dying and falling from a tree and getting turned into soil and minerals and then absorbed by the tree again and making new leafs. The 5 aggregates are stuck in a closed system that is the universe which expands and contracts for infinity, this is samsara.

Also, the default mode of the mind is ayoniso manasikara (improper attention), therefore ignorance must exist. “Good friends” refers to Ariyas. If there is no true dhamma in the world, then there are no good friends in the world, and therefore everyone is stuck in ignorance.

The Buddha said wherever you find the true dhamma, is wherever you find Ariyas (good friends). Wherever you find Ariyas you find yoniso manasikara (proper attention), and thus no ignorance.

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I’m sorry this discussion has confused you.

To remain true to the words of EBTs, seeking to help you, the Buddha in the sutta says:

  • He could not discern a starting point for transmigration. SN15.9 and many other suttas in SN15 are a source for that.
  • He taught how transmigration and all the suffering it encompasses is dependently originated. SN12 has many suttas on the topic.
  • He taught that avijja, a fundamental ignorance to the four Noble truths and their liberating implications, is the root cause of such a painful process of transmigration
  • He offered a framework in which avijja is then itself a condition that is originated, or better, sustained and maintained, by specific factors itself. AN10.61 is a great source for that.
  • Under that framework, while we may remain as much as in the dark as the Buddha was in regards to a discernible first point, we have a good framework to work on what would bring to cessation the process of transmigration and all the suffering it involves.

Now, if someone believes he or she must have a definitive answer for the first point of suffering/rebirth to work out his/her own liberation from it, then Buddhism may not be of much help.

And that’s ok. :slightly_smiling_face:

Moreover, the Buddha left us exactly the simile of the arrow to dissuade us from that standpoint and approach. That’s found in MN63.

Hope it helps :anjal:

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Not just Buddhism, any worldview really.

Even theisms which try to argue in favor of a first point have the problem “where did god come from?”

They just try to avoid it by saying god is eternal.

Conceptually one can always keep asking what came prior. It’s an endless chain of questioning that gets one nowhere.

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Don’t be discouraged :grinning:

The fact that you found yourself on this forum and are asking such questions is already a good thing.

Speaking from my own experience, it’s only natural to be curious about such things when your knowledge of the teachings has not quite formed yet.

But if you stick with the path and be patient, it’s only natural that your understanding will naturally deepen over time.

I’m not claiming to be an expert BTW, but I can say that when I look a few years back, I see the natural progression in both knowledge and conduct.

I see there are already a few sutta references here so what’s another one? :face_with_raised_eyebrow:

With Vacchagotta on Fire

There’s a bit in the sutta that sounds a bit like your post:

“I fail to understand this point, Master Gotama; I’ve fallen into confusion.
And I’ve now lost even the degree of clarity I had from previous discussions with Master Gotama.”

“No wonder you don’t understand, Vaccha, no wonder you’re confused.
For this principle is deep, hard to see, hard to understand, peaceful, sublime, beyond the scope of logic, subtle, comprehensible to the astute."

“It’s hard for you to understand, since you have a different view, creed, preference, practice, and tradition.”

SPOILER ALERT
It’s got a happy ending :grinning: :pray:

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The notion of birth ‘jāti’, if according to SN12.20 = SA 296, is one of phenomena ‘dhammas’ arisen by causal condition. So, birth/rebirth is also about ageing-and-death (jarāmaraṇaṃ), which is impermanent, compounded, having the nature of destruction, of decay, of fading away, of cessation. Pages 154-156 from the-fundamental-teachings-of-early-buddhism_Choong Mun-keat 2000.pdf (196.8 KB)

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Seeking strict definitions (strict boundaries/arbitrary definitions) and group consensus are worldly solutions that temporarily alleviate uncertainty but keeps it going indefinitely. This is why, the Indian neti neti (not this - not that) tool of investigation, is refreshingly honest. It teaches us to use conventions skillfully without being too attached to them.

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You’re right, my mistake. I wasn’t being clear enough. What I referred to is the Paticcasamuppada, in the twelve links that conditions suffering (Avijja conditioned sankharas, sankharas conditioned vinnana, etc.) I meant only what that conditioned the beginning of Avijja. That one, as the Buddha said, is not discernable.

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anamatagga — without beginning or end, epithet of saṃsāra “whose beginning and end are alike unthinkable”

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