Impermanence and No-self (Aniccha and Anatta)

I am understanding what you trying to say now clearly. Buddha taught us to from anicca then dukkha then Anatta. So I guess that means, what I am asking is that, is it possible to reverse the order, by starting from Anatta.

Yes, so(based on what you said above) let’s just suppose for example I became established in Anatta dharma, then again because I haven’t gone through anicca and Dukkha I’ll see Anatta here n Anatta there and gradually I’ll see Anatta as anicca only(as you said). As a result we can say stream-entry is out of reach for me because I am seeing Anatta as anicca…instead of seeing anicca as Anatta, as I suppose taught by buddha. Stream-enterer is not liable to fall in lower painful realms because he has seen anicca and then Anatta…unlike me who has realised Anatta first without realising anicca, as a result I’ll not be able to be ‘anatta’ forever, hence I’ll be liable to fall in lower realms/or in other words fall back to samsara as soon as I see Anatta as anicca… effectively result being perfect failure to attain stream-entry. In other words even if I realise Anatta, my attachment/tanha/craving for existence will not end because I haven’t seen anicca first.

So plz tell me if my conclusion/understanding is right…

My conclusion is, stream-entry results when anicca is seen as Anatta successfully, only then we can say it’s glimpse of nibbana. But if I see Anatta first I’ll be bound to see it as anicca at some point because I haven’t gone through anicca and Dukkha. As a result I’ll be continuosly falling back to anicca and hence by definition I cannot be stream-enterer if I go from Anatta to anicca. Plz tell me if my conclusion is right according to you.

I have another question sir. If I am continuously realising Anatta and then offcourse by default as I haven’t gone through both anicca and Dukkha, I’ll fall back from Anatta…then am I same as puthujana/sentient being who is due to ignorance continuously suffering in the cycle of birth and death? If I am not same as puthujana/sentient being(as puthujana sees anicca as both nicca and atta contrary to me who is seeing Anatta as Anicca) then what can be the difference in puthujana and me? (Offcourse by default as most I have vision of puthujana as well but along with that I have also seen/realised Anatta, let’s say because of certain kind of meditation for example’s sake)

(As far as I know, sentiend being/puthujana/run of the mill person is one who sees anicca as both nicca and atta. But if I am seeing Anatta as anicca then I wonder about difference and I am definitely not stream-enterer as we know). Plz judge this sir.

Also my 2nd conclusion is…

Anatta can be equated with nibbana only if not seen as anicca but if Anatta is seen as anicca then that Anatta is/was not nibbana in the first place. Can I say this sir?

Also plz kindly tell me does any or both of my above 2 conclusions come in the category of wrong view?

I really need to know what you have to say.

I am starting to think that this is my case presently so far my question is concerned. Although I believe you are better judge of that than me. I am waiting for your response sir @Clarity.

As I have said in the beginning, I am not a teacher. I only state my understandings. This is a forum with many well learned, experienced and respected teachers so hopefully they will see your topic and reply much better than me.

Regarding your questions,

That is my understanding. However, please take note that I do NOT make a prediction over your current life or your next life. I do NOT make a judgement over your personal practice of anatta either. I simply stated my understanding and an illustration, I do NOT say that you specifically and personally will 100% fall into that destiny. For me, due to such understanding, I prefer to follow what the Buddha taught us instead of going backward from anatta to anicca. Please understand the difference, it’s important. I am in no position to judge or make any prediction about you.

The way you said “stream-entry results when anicca is seen as Anatta successfully, only then we can say it’s glimpse of nibbana.” seems to me not as clear as I said. Anyway, the important thing is that you understand what I said. So far, it seems to me that you understand well.

About this point, maybe you can re-read what I said about other ascetics in DN1 in my post above. Those ascetics are still normal persons even with very high formless meditation achievements.

Yes. That’s my understanding and you understood it.

Because you understood well what I said, those 2 conclusions are also similar to my understanding. So, it’s a bit tricky to ask another person whether they can tell their understanding comes in the category of wrong view or not.

Even if it’s a wrong view, that person can’t see it and can’t admit it. On the other hand, if it’s really not wrong view, that person says that their understanding is not wrong view, it will be a bold declaration and it will invite many questions.

I think the better way to know such conclusions are right view or not is to compare these understandings with what the Buddha said in the sutta and if there is anything mismatches or incoherent or contradictions or inconsistency, just ask for clarifications and discussions.

Again, I really hope that many well learned, experienced and respected teachers in this forum will see your topic and reply for your own welfare and benefits.
:pray:

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I am not, but one can also ask, in general, in an open way, what exactly in seeing impermanence, inconstancy, instability, leads to more happiness, peace, wisdom, etc. In other words, why is anicca a gateway to liberation? If you know that all is unstable, that the body will perish, that you can become very ill, also mentally, that life is unsure, that things are not under controll, etc. why does stress, panic, fear not increase? Why is anicca helpfull? How does this work?

That’s the problem, what we know / define as impermanence is not correct here. We all know we will die but we don’t.

The correct term used is seeing impermanence, this is required to see things are they truly are…… the difference between conditioned and unconditioned……This is suffering when one doesn’t know…as it will be confirmed as the 1NT.

It reveals the truths (4NT) by reaching the origination, so the mind can be freed from samsara……the unborn.

Note the 2 words “dependent origination” …… meaning the core!... where one must reach… the original point.

Furthermore, it’s NOT about NO-self but rather about NOT-self…. as it leads to the arise of knowledge….so to resolve the conceit l-am.

Dhp 154:

O house-builder, you are seen! You will not build this house again. For your rafters are broken and your ridgepole shattered. My mind has reached the Unconditioned; I have attained the destruction of craving.

…… The deathless: [MN 140]… the sage at peace is not born, does not age, does not die.

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What I am, that I am forever. But in puthujjana experience asmimana or conceit “I am” is inseparable with self-image which is derived from self-identificaton with impermanent things. This is a very serious existential contradiction*, and Dhamma points out to him that he is a victim of wrong self-identificaton.

And just like the Four Noble Truths are one structure, so one who sees one of them, sees all the Truths, impermanence, dependently arisen nature of things and anatta are one structure, who sees impermanence sees dependent arising and anatta.

Existence itself… involves a self-contradiction. Kierkegaard (CUP , p. 84)

Nanavira Thera:

And where does the Buddha’s Teaching come in? If we understand the ‘eternal’ (which for Kierkegaard is ultimately God—i.e. the soul that is part of God) as the ‘subject’ or ‘self’, and ‘that which becomes’ as the quite evidently impermanent ‘objects’ in the world (which is also K.’s meaning), the position becomes clear. What we call the ‘self’ is a certain characteristic of all experience, that seems to be eternal. It is quite obvious that for all men the reality and permanence of their selves, ‘I’, is taken absolutely for granted; and the discrepancy that K. speaks of is simply that between my ‘self’ (which I automatically presume to be permanent) and the only too manifestly impermanent ‘things’ in the world that ‘I’ strive to possess. The eternal ‘subject’ strives to possess the temporal ‘object’, and the situation is at once both comic and tragic—comic, because something temporal cannot be possessed eternally, and tragic, because the eternal cannot desist from making the futile attempt to possess the temporal eternally. This tragi-comedy is suffering (dukkha) in its profoundest sense. And it is release from this that the Buddha teaches. How? By pointing out that, contrary to our natural assumption (which supposes that the subject ‘I’ would still continue to exist even if there were no objects at all), the existence of the subject depends upon the existence of the object; and since the object is manifestly impermanent, the subject must be no less so. And once the presumed-eternal subject is seen to be no less temporal than the object, the discrepancy between the eternal and the temporal disappears (in four stages—sotàpatti, sakadāgāmitā, anāgā-mitā, and arahatta); and with the disappearance of the discrepancy the two categories of ‘tragic’ and ‘comic’ also disappear. The arahat neither laughs nor weeps; and that is the end of suffering (except, of course, for bodily pain, which only ceases when the body finally breaks up).

In this way you may see the progressive advance from the thoughtlessness of immediacy (either childish amusement, which refuses to take the tragic seriously, or pompous earnestness, which refuses to take the comic humorously) to the awareness of reflexion (where the tragic and the comic are seen to be reciprocal, and each is given its due), and from the awareness of reflexion (which is the limit of the puthujjana’s philosophy) to full realization of the ariya dhamma (where both tragic and comic finally vanish, never again to return). L 27

  • Nanavira Thera:

It is the merit of the existentialist philosophers that they do in fact bring the problem to light in this way. What happens is this: the thinker examines and describes his own thinking in an act of reflexion, obstinately refusing to tolerate non-identities, contradictions, and excluded middles; at a certain point he comes up against a contradiction that he cannot resolve and that appears to be inherent in his very act of thinking. This contradiction is the existence of the thinker himself (as subject).

You will find this contradiction illustrated in the passage from Camus in Nibbàna [a], but it is more concisely presented in the later part of the Mahà Nidàna Suttanta (D. 15: ii,66-8), where the Buddha says that a man who identifies his ‘self’ with feeling should be asked which kind of feeling, pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral, he regards as his ‘self’. The man cannot identify his ‘self’ with all three kinds of feeling at once, since only one of the three kinds is present at a time: if he does make this identification, therefore, he must do it with the three different kinds of feeling in succession. His ‘self’, of course, he takes for granted as self-identical—‘A is A’—that is to say as the same ‘self’ on each occasion. This he proceeds to identify in turn with the three different feelings: B, C, and D. A is therefore both B and C (not to mention D); and C, being different from B, is not B: so A is both B and not B—a violation of the Law of Contradiction. But whether or not it is with feeling that the puthujjana is identifying his ‘self’, he is always identifying it with something—and it is a different something on each occasion. The puthujjana takes his existence for granted—cogito ergo sum (which, as Sartre says, is apodictic reflexive evidence of the thinker’s existence)—and is in a perpetual state of contradiction.

L 75 [L. 75 | 82] 15 December 1963 - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page

[a] (‘Of whom and of what in fact can I say “I know about that!” This heart in me, I can experience it and I conclude that it exists. This world, I can touch it and I conclude again that it exists. All my knowledge stops there, and the rest is construction. For if I try to grasp this self of which I am assured, if I try to define it and to sum it up, it is no more than a liquid that flows between my fingers. I can depict one by one all the faces that it can assume; all those given it, too, by this education, this origin, this boldness or these silences, this grandeur or this vileness. But one cannot add up faces. This same heart which is mine will ever remain for me undefinable. Between the certainty that I have of my existence and the content that I strive to give to this assur-ance, the gap will never be filled. Always shall I be a stranger to myself.

…Here, again, are trees and I know their roughness, water and I experience its savour. This scent of grass and of stars, night, certain evenings when the heart relaxes, - how shall I deny this world whose power and forces I experi-ence? Yet all the science of this earth will give me nothing that can assure me that this world is mine.’) A more lucid account by a puthujjana of his own predicament could scarcely be desired. This situation cannot be tran-scended so long as what appears to be one’s ‘self’ is accepted at its face value: ‘this self of which I am assured’, ‘this same heart which is mine’. The paradox (Marcel would speak of a mystery: a problem that encroaches on its own data)—the paradox,

(His) very self is not (his) self’s.
(More freely: He himself is not his own.)

Dhammapada v,3 <Dh.62>), must be resolved.

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They are ordered like that in text, but where did he explicitly say that they are also realized in that order?

I have viewed that knowing (that all that arises is) anicca is definitely a precursor to knowing (that all things are) anatta, but knowing (that all that arises is) dukkha was in order to act on this.

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Thanks. In the end, i believe, it is all about conceiving and getting lost in it. The cause is tanha. And avijja is that one believes that the cinematic subjective stream (dream) of conceiving is reality, is how things really are. The texts learn that the notion I am is not without grasping. It is only due to involvement that it arises.

Many people try to resolve the issue of ego with some kind of knowledge of egolessness. They had some breaktrough. Often as an incident that one can also not repeat. Most of the time, i think, in a stressful period. They have seen emptiness, nothingness, egolessness etc etc. But what i observe with those people is that they have not at all become dispassionate nor undefiled. In a sense they have not at all become noble ones. In a sense they are really like ordinairy people, but now with a spiritual breaktrough in their pocket which they feel makes them very special.

I have seen this a lot. Those people can claim to know egolessness but show all the time an immense ego. They have an extreme passion to be respected as wise, as teacher, as…it never leads to the end of conceit. I have never seen such a thing happen.

Well, that depends on what the ego definition is and this knowledge of egolessness …… l doubt this knowledge is anywhere close to the 4NT ?

Wouldn’t say the latter two is the same as the first one…… and perhaps people just label them, like a fabrication…… could be anything.

Perhaps they’re not. …… though, only a noble will know those at the same level and below but not above…… Noble is rare…… and looks like ordinarily.

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Thanks. I read a nice simile about this:

some mangos look unripe but are ripe
some mango look unripe and are ripe
some mango’s look ripe but are unripe
some mango’s look ripe and are ripe.

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“All conditioned things that is subject to origination is also subjected to cessation”. Quoted by Ven. Kondana.

Seeing with direct knowledge Anicca, Dukha and Anatta (Actual doing it via meditation in all your activities)) can True knowledge be born(realised by yourself).

Whether which stage of awakening one is at one need to asked oneselves. Why so? Because Buddha said before Ardently, fully aware and mindful.
Sotapanna stage

  1. Self view only not realisation done with?
    2.Attachment to rites and ritual done with?
  2. Doubt on the Buddha’s teaching done with?
    Sakadagami Stage
  3. Attachment to Sensual pleasure reduced? By at least 50% or below 100% ,i am not really sure.
  4. Ill Will or Anger reduced? By at least 50% or below 100%, not really sure.
    Anagami Stage
    1,2,3,4 and 5 totally done with.
    For no.1 to be totally realised is at Arahant stage.

Before realisation, the self is persistently solid due to wrong view.
Realised means; the Self has already dissolve into the highest truth, total acceptance, surrender, total let go becomes universe itself, nature itself, Anicca , Dukha and Anatta itself. No more you, me ,they etc.

Most of the worldy issue is none of my concern. One need to know why this is so ?.it is because the universe is ownerless, not under your so called delusive control.

Here at this stage, there is no gaining but losing insecurity, fear, depression etc in totality. After losing all this what is that feeling? Nibbana Bliss.

With Metta.

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