In Yoniso Manisikara, what is the source?

[Dan]

I was wondering what is the source in yoniso

1. yoniso: ind.properly; prudently; thoroughly; carefully; intelligently; lit. according to the source > [√yu + *ni + so]

Example …

An10.47

“What is the cause, sir, what is the reason for doing good deeds, for performing good deeds?”
(Ko pana, bhante, hetu ko paccayo kalyāṇassa kammassa kiriyāya kalyāṇassa kammassa pavattiyā”ti?)
[…]

So seems like a good idea to keep the source in mind. hehe .

So that’s my question…what is the source in yoniso?

Now I have a couple thoughts that came to mind or associations I had when I had that question… could it be, perhaps, it is like the samudaya awareness in the satipatthana sutta (the aspect which is of vipassana)? Not just mere awareness that there is arising & perishing - I think Bhante had a note that it’s aspect of vipassana. As I understand it it is that consistent mindfulness and awareness - say with vedana - of things arising and passing but it’s like abiding in that - so like if “coffee” comes to mind it’s rather the awareness of that craving as sensation thats perishing and has origins - in a sense - it’s the satisfaction of what you wanted in the coffee anyway hehe - no need for coffee! (that’s perhaps how its related to the other aspects of the good action in that sutta like contentment etc)

Another aspect that came to mind when I thought “what is the source” in yoniso of yoniso manisikara was the kind of “root of things” suttas or where I knew there were “roots” maybe AN10.58 a “mula” suta

“Mendicants, if wanderers of other religions were to ask:
‘Reverends, all things have what as their root?
[…]

and it seems like if seeing this way you’re doing well because all the things have

vimuttisārā sabbe dhammā,
freedom as their coreh

so in this respect maybe like the “samudayavayadhammānupassī vā kāyasmiṁ viharati.” in the satipatthana sutta (which would make sense as why that is listed with contentment, love, understanding as a cause of good deed)

so in that “mula” sutta or root of things sutta - one talking about roots but its percular in that the whole sequence of root of all things doesn’t seem unwholesome where as mn1 “root of all things” has a tinge of the unwholesome - in a sense about like how samsara arises. Noticing that theres “delight” - that seems that ignorance which contains that spark of greed (like the sequence in DN22 discussing 4 noble truth … eg “nandi” of mn1 would be like the “manosamphasso loke piyarūpaṁ sātarūpaṁ, etthesā taṇhā uppajjamānā uppajjati” in the DN22 line 19.30 - hence the “not understand it I say” at mn1 )

Also in Iti 42 the Sukkha Dhamma sutta - the whole “bright things” being hiri and ottapa being bright roots “sukkamūlā” and those two things being sufficient for liberation that would make sense as good deed, or the root in “yoni”

Or maybe I have read too much into this?

Anyway theres always risk if share thoughts before able to hear what others think I could polute what is others intuitions that might be softly there about what the source in yoniso is, I’m curious how others resolved or thought about the “source” in yoniso? Or even if dhamma established and sangha is this even an appropriate question? is it ignorant thinking like “how did the world begin” hehe (well that would be MN1 - delight!) or It could be an invalid question due to a misunderstanding? (I don’t know pali and always swittched off when hear these new long words “declension” etc hehe but I today just decided to try memorise the sati sutta for uposotha - so that’s where these questions from)

What is the source in “Yoniso”?

With metta

[trusolo]

Not sure if you have seen it or not but there was an extensive discussion on it here:

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/notes-on-yoniso-manasi-kara/29296

[Khemarato.bhikkhu]

Source there means “causes”: in this case, Dependant Origination.

[AdrianMagno]

@Dan

So seems like a good idea to keep the source in mind. hehe .

Hmmm……it is

@Dan

perhaps, it is like the samudaya awareness in the satipatthana sutta

Hmmm, yeah good call there Dan.

Perhaps you can also think of it as vimamsa, you know that sense of investigating, that curiosity that says “what’s causing this to happen?” or it could also be paccavekana (not sure if I spelt that right), that sense of reviewing and finding out how that went, what did you do right/wrong etc.

@Dan

I’m curious how others resolved or thought about the “source” in yoniso?

I like to think of it as, getting to the ‘core’ of things, you keep investigating until you break through each layer of delusion, until one day, you’re at the cusp, you’re very close, ‘you can smell the ocean’ (that’s from Bhante’s simile of riding his bike to Cottesloe beach hehe)

It’s like MN8, Self-effacement, or on in my head I think of it as ‘wearing away at the self’.

You know, you’re “chipping away at the self”.

You’re searching for that house-builder, like Ven. Sivaka

@Dan

today just decided to try memorise the sati sutta for uposotha

Nice , I started chanting the Dhammacakkappavattana sutta (wow, so many double letters there ). It took me more than half hour, because I kept mispronouncing bits and pieces

@Dan

What is the source in “Yoniso”?

It’s the house-builder, the doer, the tyrant, the one that’s always nagging you to do something or do this and that.

I can’t remember which dhamma talk it is now, or who the teacher was, but they brought up this lovely image from the Wizard of Oz.

It’s close to the end of the movie when they’ve all arrived in the Emerald city and they’re face to face with Oz, and Toto walks over to a curtain, and pulls the curtain away and you see this old man behind this contraption with all these dials and knobs which he uses to create the illusion of the Wizard of OZ. So the pulling away of the curtain is like getting to the ‘source’ and you see that there’s really nothing of significance there, it’s hollow and empty, and you’ve just been slaving away all those lifetimes.

You see the house-builder!

[Erika_ODonnell]

Since contentment, love, understanding, yoniso manasikāro, and ‘a rightly directed mind’ are all causes of good deeds, a thought experiment would be to imagine someone who has no contentment, love, understanding, nor a rightly directed mind – but they can still do good deeds based on yoniso manasikāro, despite the absence of all the others.

So what does that look like?

When I think like this, I remember way back when I had started meditating, but I hadn’t taken up any precepts nor learnt any Dhamma yet (I’m assuming ‘a rightly directed mind’ is related to some form of preliminary right view).

Anyway, I remember coming home from college and using a paper towel to squish a spider that had come inside the house. This was how I had been taught to deal with bugs, I had never questioned it.

But I still remember squishing that spider and, for the first time, feeling very strongly that “this is wrong”.

So like, when I killed that spider, I didn’t have much contentment, love, understanding, or right view. But, I think because I had been meditating, it was like I could see that my mind knew that I had done a bad act. And that did cause good deeds later because I started just moving bugs outside instead from then on.

So I think the source is maybe something like “inside” or “inwards” in the sense of “looking inside yourself” or “looking inwards”.

And I think dependent origination is the ultimate application of “looking inwards” because craving aka the cause of suffering is found inside our own minds. The call is coming from inside the house, as they say

Edit: I wonder if “introspection” is a good translation for yoniso manasikāra?

Introspection is the inward examination of one’s own conscious thoughts, emotions, and motivations to increase self-awareness.

Of course, it would be introspection that is applied in a certain way in the EBTs, not just in a general sense.

[Dan]

@Erika_ODonnell

Edit: I wonder if “introspection” is a good translation for yoniso manasikāra?

I like your post and think was very beautiful and getting at something intuitively that rings true to me but on the word “introspection” my guess is not because “ajjhattabahiddhā vā kāye kāyānupassī viharati” (I don’t know pali ctrl-c ctrl-v thank you) internal and external in regards to this body in the body abiding - but -spection sounds intuitively right on - if not totally “intro-” - but then maybe because “the external body” one conventionally thinks is the external is not what meant there (I don’t think) as that would be its contact at the eye sense, consciousness , perception, reaction to the perception, (as described in the noble truth section) etc knowing that condition completely - the fabrication and construction of the “external” (the all) is all happening internally, but it’s not a solipsism if it would be yoniso, yet also aware of other like a mystery as in its an attention in ethical relation the “face to face” relation would be the example of an “external” where peoples normal notions of other as some object or self gets called into relation, “ajjhattabahiddhā” internal-external, it’s generally harder to have the causes of animosity ill will “ayoniso manisikara to sign of fault” or “ayoniso to sign of the beuatiful” compared to the mistake of thinking one knows the external when it’s in fact the internal, and that strikes me as yoniso maniskara because the presence of the other presents the ethical in face to face relation presents an arising passing intangible mystery - an ethical dimension.

like that awareness - vihariti - samudaya - hehe - like not to squish the cockroach -or the “face to face” relation which could be internal-external

“…bahiddhā vā kāye kāyānupassī viharati, ajjhattabahiddhā vā kāye kāyānupassī viharati. Samudayadhammānupassī vā kāyasmiṁ viharati…”

“ajjhattabahiddhā vā kāye kāyānupassī viharati” (I don’t know pali ctrl-c ctrl-v thank you) internal and external in regards to this body in the body abiding - but … I think of like the buddha say like “one who sees me” and also how nibanna is with in regards this ethical dimension

like it’s not this like tick the box and ok got my ethics, ok got my sati, ok sit down get my cessation hehe xD

[Dan]

Thank you bhante that is solid answer but the problem is I don’t understand dependent origination so where to put my attention.

[Dogen]

@Dan

So seems like a good idea to keep the source in mind. hehe .

So that’s my question…what is the source in yoniso?

In this thread I came to the conclusion to Bhante Sunyo more or less agreeing with it, that “yoniso” is likely an idiomatic expression, signifying “fundamentally”, “thoroughly”, “all the way through”, rather than something literal.

This is evident with other uses of the term “yoniso”, for example monks using cloth “yoniso” and not wasting any part of it as a result. Apologies for lack of sources but said discussion can be found in Trusolo’s link.

So perhaps that’ll be a help or not!

@trusolo

Not sure if you have seen it or not but there was an extensive discussion on it here:

Notes on yoniso manasi kāra

[Dan]

I guess the question I had in mind was more like … you know if walking at night you have to look to the side to see the path? Like if I just “looked” at what ever I thought D.O was now - that would not work as I don’t understand it - so to be aware and walk the path - to even be a trainee at all as far as I can tell from my limited understanding of the suttas requires yoniso manisikara - so If I was to guess where to look “to the side slightly” to walk the path at night so could make out the shapes, it would be “any feeling is an indication of change”.

With metta

[Dan]

@Dogen

I came to the conclusion to Bhante Sunyo more or less agreeing with it, that “yoniso” is likely an idiomatic expression, signifying “fundamentally”, “thoroughly”, “all the way through”, rather than something literal.

Interesting, so cause of desire the buddha says is “ayoniso manisikara to the sign of the beautiful” how would you interpret that?

[Erika_ODonnell]

What about reckful and reckless attention/work-of-the-mind?

reckful is an uncommon or archaic adjective meaning full of care, heed, or attention; it is the direct antonym of “reckless”. While reckless is commonly used to mean careless, reckful implies being cautious, thoughtful, or mindful, derived from the Old English “reck” (care/heed).

It works with using a cloth recklessly (wasting it) or reckfully (making sure everything is used).

It kind of makes yoniso manasikāra synonymous with heedfulness tho? Are they basically the same?

Reckless attention to the beautiful kind of packs a bit more emotional punch than it just being unwise, like reckless driving means someone could get hurt, unwise driving is a bit more vague imo

[Dogen]

@Erika_ODonnell

It kind of makes yoniso manasikāra synonymous with heedfulness tho? Are they basically the same?

I would say yes, heedful / diligent sounds good (and I would also argue that ap/pamada actually means something more like sober / intoxicated metaphorically, in the sense of abstaining or getting drunk off sense media).

[Khemarato.bhikkhu]

@Dan

the problem is I don’t understand dependent origination so where to put my attention.

Indeed, it is a bit of a chicken and egg problem! The important thing though isn’t to understand D.O. intellectually. It’s to pay attention to the suffering and to investigate its causes in your actual life.

This is in contrast to our default tendency, which is to look away from our suffering: to bury it under business and distractions. So instead we sit still and let feelings arise and we observe how they arise and change and pass. Slowly with observation will come understanding. That’s the promise at least.

[Dan]

@Dan

it is like the samudaya awareness in the satipatthana sutta

I was reading about “sandi” and how they decompose a word in burmese nissaya treadition -and i found so inspiring was the “vedanāsu vedanānupassī” that that had the word “-anu” in it and reading about that being “with” or “along side” and “behind” and the doubling of the word there too part of the holding “-anu” would be the prior aspects on path -

like say - talkign a bit too much or samphapalapa) would bring ones attention out of that - so the like “if can keep with it” that is that grammatical structure of the doubling words of the 4 factors with the -anu and then later again when samudaya mentioned (but it’s not -anu) there that would explain the whole 7days (maybe if good parami) / 7 year thing -as being able to stay with it like that would require that kind of kusula from the other parts of the path but also - trying to keep it may be first indication of vereing from the path even slightly. Anyway that’s where think I am going for “yoniso manisikara” as current but of course that’s “view” and could change (and later be cringe if so ) hehe - like not reified like “what is the source” but the like where is well directed - instrumental / practical - yeah wonder if I am just way off (probably roughly ball park correct but maybe some misinterpretation - “anu” read too much into or something) but noticing how say if even slight samphapalapa mind is not with like with that - where as you can imagine other “object” or places to direct attention one could vere from path and still be paying attention - so that would be the factor of “yoniso” as “properly; prudently; thoroughly; carefully intelligently”

with metta