Inherent Inequality and The Four Imponderables

Hi Alex

Like I sort of said before, I don’t understand your final question…in the sense that I don’t understand where you are coming from.

I get the feeling you’ve already answered the question for yourself and to your own satisfaction. Perhaps you could clearly share your own theory and then re-ask/re-phrase your question. Actually just clearly stating what you think would make it clearer.

I feel we’re answering the question coming from very different views/paradigms. So we’re probably missing each other. Perhaps you could clarify your own belief/paradigm/background view?

The views we hold really do make a massive difference to how we think.

“Believe” in them. Not exactly. Particularly cos I’ve never seen any myself. But I’m certainly open to the possibility that they exist. Yes, true, people claim to see them…I know a couple of people who have…I know them personally…have done for years. They’re honest, reliable, rational, intelligent people. Even if I didn’t know them well, I certainly wouldn’t dismiss them outright…I’d think that was the height of rudeness and indeed arrogance…as if just cos I’d been practicing for half a life time, I knew best…or just cos I hadn’t seen them (the ghosts), I knew best. I find that sort of mind state very closing… Speaking for myself, I find it’s so easy when I don’t meditate correctly or long enough or regularly enough and simply live in the realm of thought, to become closed to things and only believe one’s own thought patterns…I find I become insensitive to what/who is in front of me. Even so, I’d never try and belittle or imply these folks were nuts…not saying that you are (!) I’ve been guilty of being rude/arrogant and merely thought based plenty of times, but I’d still find it impolite to do this to someone’s face, so I took what these folks said on face value…ie…that it was true for them. And just cos it wasn’t my truth, doesn’t mean it wasn’t the truth.

With metta

Hi Alex, yes perhaps so, but then he wondered around for 6 years…he would’ve seen heaps of suffering and inequality. I reckon anyway…

Yeah, agreed…really beautiful teachings and wonderful teacher :smile:

Oh…btw I replied earlier but then I edited and re-edited…I don’t know if SuttaCentral will email you the edits…so maybe read my reply here? rather than the emailed version… Lol…I mean, read both if you like…but my intentions are made clearer in the current edited version. :smile:

with metta

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Hi Kay,

I’m absolutely sure the Buddha saw heaps of suffering and inequality! He was in India and Nepal.

Buddhism in my view is by far the most beautiful and helpful belief system I have come into contact with. It has and continues to only do good things for me. It even solves my 1st world problems!

Bhante Sujato also continues to impress me. This website is absolutely amazing! I very much hope to get some monastic input into this discussion.

I edit and re-edit all the time. I find my proofreading improves by nearly 100% after I hit the submit button. Also think you’re a great writer and should keep it up!

with metta

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heh, heh…lol…thanks for that Alex.

I’m sure the bhantes will reply… they’re just heavily committed with other things… not least of which is their own practice! But I know they both have other teaching commitments and other duties to attend to as well. I think Bhante S in particularly is very busy with other Sutta Central stuff… But I’m looking forward to reading their replies too.

with metta

Hi Russell,

What I meant by atypical is that Buddhist are suppose to have an uncommon view about the world. Would you agree? If so why do most Buddhists, but especially the novices maintain a dogma or at the very least sound very much the same when questioned about The Four Imponderables?

Are Buddhists really so busy practicing to not question the Buddha-range of the Buddha, to not question the powers absorbed while in jhana, the precise workings of karma, and to speculate about the origins of the cosmos?

Or are they just generalizing / being apathetic?

Yes, life/existence comes with problems. For example I currently think it’s inherently unequal. Apathy may in fact be the best course of action given the circumstances.

Maybe apathy is not the best course of action.

But in order to practice and train I am not suppose to question The Four Imponderables? That’s convenient!

Here we go round the mulberry bush,
The mulberry bush,
The mulberry bush.
Here we go round the mulberry bush
On a cold and frosty morning.

Here we go round the mulberry bush,
The mulberry bush,
The mulberry bush.
Here we go round the mulberry bush
So early in the morning.

I only have good things to say about The Noble Eightfold Path. There are many paths in life. When possible I do not believe in generalizing or being apathetic.

Really Russell are you so sure?

Dear Alex,

LOL…your way of inquiry is really funny. Eerily familiar. But that’s just my feeling. Label me all you want be it atypical, dogmatic, and apathetic. I’ll take all three. :blush:

Of course my view would be different from others. Isn’t your view different from mine? :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:

Of course it would seem dogmatic as you’ve asked about Buddhist practices and I gave you something from my practice. That’s the best I could give you. Did you expect something else LOL. If you did, then that was a very foolish expectation LOL. :kissing_heart:

Yes you are right, I am apathetic. Apathetic to what you think about my practice is LOL. :stuck_out_tongue:

BTW of course I am sure I made good kamma. How do you know I didn’t? :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

Furthermore, you keep going in circles. You’re also getting to be insulting and condescending too, why don’t you try a little bit of respect and humility? :wink:

It’s getting to be papañcha for me. I’ll end my post for this thread here. Perhaps you’re gonna give me another label. Can’t wait for that! :kissing_heart:

Thanks for the laugh! :smile:

May you be well.

with añjali,
russ

Russell, I haven’t labeled you once.

Clearly…

There was no expectation.

And now you’re being defensive.

Are we making good karma now?

In my view nothing I have said should be taken as insulting or condescending. Are you implying I should be showing respect and humility towards you?

Again, I haven’t labeled you once other than maybe defensive.

Hi Alex and all,

I’m getting the feeling that your inquiring mind is still unsatisfied, so let me have a go.

On the question of equality, I think we need to start by making a distinction between equality in fact and equality in principle. There are probably proper philosophical terms for these, but let’s go with this.

What do I mean by these?

Consider gravity. It is a fundamentally equal force in principle: any object of a certain mass exerts exactly the same gravitational pull.

Yet in fact the universe has a highly unequal distribution of gravity, from the emptiness of intergalactic space, to the intensity of a black hole.

So gravity is equal in principle and unequal in fact.

I would suggest that kamma is the same. The principle of kamma—do good, get good, do bad, get bad—applies equally to everyone, everywhere, all the time, so it is equal in principle.

But the specifics of how that play out vary tremendously, so it is unequal in fact.

This relates to the question of the imponderables. First thing is to acknowledge that the text as it stands is quite open; there is not much explanation for it, so we are left to inference.

Now, given that the Buddha frequently spoke about kamma and urged practitioners to understand it, it seems impossible that he meant that one shouldn’t try to understand kamma. More likely, what he meant was that shouldn’t try to understand every little detail.

Again, compare to gravity. It is easy enough to understand the principle: things fall down. Or more accurately: objects with mass exert an attractive force on each other. That’s good enough for you to know—don’t fall from high places! But if you want to work out all the details of the gravitational interactions of all objects in the universe, you’ll go mad.

This is, I think, a very real temptation in the realm of kamma. People are very apt to assume that such-&-such happened because of kamma. Then if that happened, then what about this? And how does that relate to so-&-so’s kamma? The questions never end, and they get further and further from any meaningful basis in experience.

So if you want to understand gravity, you need to know the principle of the thing, and that is good enough for any practical cases. Same thing with kamma: understand the principle, and then apply it when you need to make choices.

This hopefully helps with your question about whether karma and reincarnation depend on not questioning the four imponderables.

For a scientist to admit that they can’t know every detail about gravity doesn’t mean that they stop inquiring. On the contrary, they keep testing their understanding and apply it in new cases.

The same thing with kamma. The four imponderables are not about saying don’t inquire into rebirth; they are about saying that certain kinds of inquiry are not going to be useful. The Buddha never wanted to shut down inquiry, he wanted to guide inquiry in a way that would help let go of suffering. So do the inquiry that will yield actual results, i.e. by observing how kamma and result plays out in your own mind, not speculating about things you can never know of.

One further remark on the ethical implications of equality. Don’t confuse the kinds of equality we have been talking about with the more ethically charged notion of equality in human society.

Equality, whether of fact or of principle, in the case of kamma or gravity are simply descriptions of how the world is. Kamma itself is neither good nor bad, any more than gravity is. It’s just how the world works. But if you do bad kamma you’ll suffer, just as if you fall out of a tree, you’ll suffer.

However, when we talk of equality in society, we imbue it with an ethical judgement: equality is good, inequality is bad. (It’s not so simple, but that’s the basic idea.) Society should be more equal and we have an ethical obligation to make it more equal. That’s how many people think about equality, and I agree.

Equality in society doesn’t depend on people being actually equal, which is obviously not the case: everyone is different. It depends on the idea that everyone deserves equal treatment and equal opportunities. It’s about a fair go.

The problem is that the world is highly unequal, and getting more so, and those who benefit from this are the ones with power and money. So you need a strong pull in the other direction if you want to even get close to a fair go.

In modern democracies, for example, we are theoretically equal in the eyes of the law. In reality a rich man is going to hire a great lawyer, and the rest of us will end up with some schmuck.

If we want greater equality—which we should—then we have to actively stand up for the poor, the voiceless, and the disenfranchised.

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Thank you for the info Bhante… That really balanced out a few considerations I’ve been thinking about the past few months and very much have been struggling with the last few days! Thank you everyone else.

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Glad to help, Alex. Enjoy the national parks!

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