Instead of nihilism, Nibbana is the only thing that exists

Discussion
61

@Pasanna, looks like you got it right the first time, then!

Phala-citta, according to commentarial classification. Nama and rupa- the objects of consciousness, has to cease for this to happen:

"Where there is no passion for the nutriment of physical food, where there is no delight, no craving, then consciousness does not land there or grow. Where consciousness does not land or grow, name-&-form does not alight. Where name-&-form does not alight, there is no growth of fabrications. Where there is no growth of fabrications, there is no production of renewed becoming in the future. Where there is no production of renewed becoming in the future, there is no future birth, aging, & death. That, I tell you, has no sorrow, affliction, or despair.

[Similarly with the nutriment of contact, intellectual intention, and consciousness.]

“Just as if there were a roofed house or a roofed hall having windows on the north, the south, or the east. When the sun rises, and a ray has entered by way of the window, where does it land?”

“On the western wall, lord.”

“And if there is no western wall, where does it land?”

“On the ground, lord.”

“And if there is no ground, where does it land?”

“On the water, lord.”

“And if there is no water, where does it land?”

“It does not land, lord.”

"In the same way, where there is no passion for the nutriment of physical food… contact… intellectual intention… consciousness, where there is no delight, no craving, then consciousness does not land there or grow. Where consciousness does not land or grow, name-&-form does not alight. SN12.64

Even that consciousness has to cease for nibbana to manifest itself fully, as there cannot be an fabricated dhamma for nibbana to fully manifest:

Here long & short
coarse & fine
fair & foul
name & form
are all brought to an end.
With the cessation of [the aggregate of] consciousness
each is here brought to an end.
— DN 11

Dhammas include nibbana, too. It is only the five aggregates (which causes dukkha) that cease.

with metta,

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62

What then, are examples of things which are not dhamma in this case?

63

There is nothing which is not dhamma, as in ‘sabbe dhamma anatta…’.

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64

citta, mind, consciousness, awareness…all just words…trying to say the same thing.
Now, consider the above…in bold.
“Objects of”…is the objects themselves and not the consciousness itself.
You noted consciousness has to cease!?..this leads to the question…if this consciousness ceases then how can one experience that state termed as Nibbana? That would be impossible…yes?

Once again, this does not mean it ceases.
A plane flying above a runway about to land but doesn’t land due to faulty landing gears not opening…this does not mean the plane disappears does it? it is still flying in mid-air…yes?

What that piece of text illustrates is that consciousness is said to be conjoined with objects, ie. eyes, body, nose etc and only with “contact” that it is seen…and it can be separated…all this is what is term as conditioned. That state of Nibbana is outside of objects…termed as “consciousness without feature” and many others statements. The word “feature” is the objects themselves…That is why that experience of Nibbana is termed as “Direct experience” because it is beyond the ALL. ALL here are the 5 aggregates, meaning without using them!!

Now consider the following:
“THAT” which experiences the state of Nibbana must be unconditioned…being so, “THAT” must also be unconditioned…yes? if so, How can it be destroyed?..because it can’t as it is unborn.

The path has “Release”…Question, What is released here? Why Buddha used the word “Awakened”?..What is it that is released / awakened?

65

Ok, let me follow Buddha’s basic principles- start from the basics, and take it step by step:

Nama and rupa arises at the six sense bases, and then consciousness arises. These three join together and form contact (phassa). Feelings, identification, mental fabrications follows. This is what happens 99.9% of the time. The consciousness that arises this way, lasts only a moment, before other factors arise, which has the quality of consciousness imbued in them, after it arises. I hope this makes some sense. I appreciate it is hard to understand without having actually seen it, in meditation.

Having followed sila, samadhi, and panna the practitioner sees the five aggregates and sees their anicca,dukkha and anatta qualities. At one point cessation (nirodha) starts happening. Here mental and physical phenomena start ceasing, but consciousness is aware of them ceasing, if that makes sense. They start fading away; this is while the practitioner is fully alert.

This is similar to the above beam of sunlight not falling on anything. But it still persists long enough to know that this new dhamma (phenomena) doesn’t have the qualities of anicca, dukkha and anantta. This is of course, the perception of nibbana in phalasamapatti (phalacitta perceives nibbana for an extended period, compared to magga-citta, which happens in an instant).

So now, for a proper cessation of suffering, consciousness which is also dukkha, must also cease. This happens in phalasamapatti (as noted in some EBTs- thpugh this term itself is not usuallly used) and the perceiving consciousness also ceases. The only way to know is when one comes out of it, a bit like waking up from a deep sleep and knowing one has slept, but also more concretely because a clock would show time has elapsed. Some traditions seek to obtain such proficiency over this state that they can enter it at will.

The paticcasamuppada shows us the consciousness at the nama-rupa are separate ‘objects’. This will only become aparent when sufficient samadhi is developed and wielded in a certain way. Otherwise it seems to be all happening together at the same time. Commentaries call this ‘ghana sanna’ or ‘lumped’ perception because they consciousness, nama and rupa are all perceived as ‘this world and me in it’; and not as sense doors, elements, and aggregates. Hope this makes sense.

with metta

66

3 issues in bold:
“new”…on the perspective from delusion to non-delusion, then the word "new"is ideal. On the flip side, it is not new because it is always there as one is under delusion before.

“phenomena”…No. if one enters that state, it is not termed as one because it is unestablished. (That dimension)

“perception of nibbana”…is very loose here. Just like the title of this thread, Nibbana is not a thing, an object nor a place. It is a word that describes the process of the mind being set free…from the destruction of passion , hate and delusion/ignorance.

Here is a nice piece of text from SN22.53:

“If a monk abandons passion for the property of consciousness, then owing to the abandonment of passion, the support is cut off, and there is no landing of consciousness. Consciousness, thus not having landed, not increasing, not concocting, is released. Owing to its release, it is steady. Owing to its steadiness, it is contented. Owing to its contentment, it is not agitated. Not agitated, he (the monk) is totally unbound right within. He discerns that ‘Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.’”

Refer to above text SN22.53…are you sure it must cease?
“when one comes out of it”…like waking up from a dream.

Consider AN6.13:

“Furthermore, there is the case where a monk might say, ‘Although “I am” is gone, and I do not assume that “I am this,” still the arrow of uncertainty & perplexity keeps overpowering my mind.’ He should be told, 'Don’t say that. You shouldn’t speak in that way. Don’t misrepresent the Blessed One, for it’s not right to misrepresent the Blessed One, and the Blessed One wouldn’t say that. It’s impossible, there is no way that — when “I am” is gone, and “I am this” is not assumed — the arrow of uncertainty & perplexity would keep overpowering the mind. That possibility doesn’t exist, for this is the escape from the arrow of uncertainty & perplexity: the uprooting of the conceit, "I am.”’

67

Are you talking about a temporary cessation of mental and physical phenomena here, ie a meditative state?

68

Are you saying that the five aggregates cease at the point of Nibbana? If so, it would be useful to see some sutta support for this view. Nibbana is usually described as the cessation of the taints, rather than as the cessation of the aggregates.

SN 22.48 suggests that it is the clinging aggregates that cease, not the aggregates per se.
https://suttacentral.net/en/sn22.48

69

The taints are the cause for the occurrence of the aggregates (2nd Noble truth).

70

The 2nd Noble Truth says that the cause of dukkha is tanha ( craving ), not that tanha causes the skandhas.
Unless you are talking about tanha as a cause for future becoming in the 3 realms?

71

The aggregates are what is called dukkha. Also as said, sabbe sankhara dukkha. Anything that comes from a cause is unsatisfying because they are unsustainable.

72

Dukkha arises when the aggregates are clung to, when there is craving. Without the aggregates there is no experience at all.

73

Clinging to present aggregates causes the occurrence of future aggregates (via kamma). It is a cycle, of paticca sammuppada.

74

True. But equally, that which is impermanent is also dukkha (see SN22.59).

This means emotional dukkha that arises due to craving is removed at enlightenment. Pain (physical pain, for example) is not removed at enlightenment. All suffering/pain/dukkha is removed in the temporary meditative state of experiencing Nibbana. All that is impermanent also is shown to cease- except that the body is still alive and therefore we have to return to impermanence. Upon death the meditative state of Nibbana is said to be permanent. We know this because the Buddha is able to see this and report back to us. Also increasingly the higher one goes in the path they are more able to easily access states of cessation, so this becomes and extension to a time when the body is no more.

with metta

75

Here long & short
coarse & fine
fair & foul
name & form
are all brought to an end.
With the cessation of [the aggregate of] consciousness
each is here brought to an end.
— DN 11

"Feeling, perception, intention, contact, & attention: This is called name. The four great elements, and the form dependent on the four great elements: This is called form. This name & this form are called name-&-form.

As shown in SN22.59 all which is impermanent is dukkha. Therefore to completely remove dukkha all of the five aggregates must come to an end. Name and form is here, shorthand for the five aggregates, in this poem.

Correct. So it is a meditative state of Nibbana. But the Buddha for the most part explains it in terms of reduced clinging, which is a requirement for the meditative state, as well as to stop emotional suffering due to clinging in non-meditative life.

with metta

76

If nibbana is a state or substance then it is not anicca and not dukkha. If nibbana is a thing/state it is per definition atta!

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77

Parinibbāna is the breakup of the aggregates—there was no individual before, there is no individual to declare as not existing.

[…]

Then, great king, do you have an accountant or calculator or mathematician who can count the water in the great ocean thus: ‘There are so many gallons of water,’ or ‘There are so many hundreds of gallons of water,’ or ‘There are so many thousands of gallons of water,’ or ‘There are so many hundreds of thousands of gallons of water’?

No, revered lady. For what reason? Because the great ocean is deep, immeasurable, hard to fathom.

So too, great king, that form by which one describing the Tathāgata might describe him has been abandoned by the Tathāgata, cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, obliterated so that it is no more subject to future arising. The Tathāgata, great king, is liberated from reckoning in terms of form; he is deep, immeasurable, hard to fathom like the great ocean. ‘The Tathāgata exists after death’ does not apply; ‘the Tathāgata does not exist after death’ does not apply; ‘the Tathāgata both exists and does not exist after death’ does not apply; ‘the Tathāgata neither exists nor does not exist after death’ does not apply.

It is wonderful, venerable sir! It is amazing, venerable sir! How the meaning and the phrasing of both teacher and disciple coincide and agree with each other and do not diverge, that is, in regard to the chief matter.

— SN 44.1 (transl. Bhikkhu Bodhi)

78

Hah! If what exists now isn’t atta, how can anything else (anything less?) be atta either?! :slight_smile:

with metta

79

Exactly, it’s like re-introducing the god-principle through the back door

80

This still looks pretty ambiguous to me. It seems to be saying that for the Tathagata there is no future arising in terms of form.