Oh yes he was. He always spoke in praise of people or cultures that have high morality. He was not the type of person to say “you people, despite being so good compared to the others, are trash compared to me”. He was not that type of guy
The Romans were brutes - exceptionally greedy and violent people with an insatiable hunger for more. They slaughtered countless numbers of people during their drive for expansion, enslaved many of the defeated, crucified the dissidents, and built stupendous wealth for a privileged elite on basis of those conquests. Of course, they needed a well-functioning legal system to keep the machinery of oppression in proper working order.
It’s hard to see people as brutes once their wealth has enabled them to dress up in a lot of fancy clothes, import and prepare refined foodstuffs, hire out the killing to professional killers, and control armies of slaves to run their elaborate households, play music for them, teach them Greek philosophy and instruct their children in delicate manners. But brutes they were.
It’s true the Buddha was not one to rail angrily and madly at the depravity of worldly society. He just gently mocked their ridiculous pretensions, pointed out the self-maiming results of lives devoted to greed and violence, and encouraged people toward the path of renunciation.
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Rape is a serious issue. If I understand you, one thing you want to say is that you would like rape to be treated with more “societal disapproval” than it is now. Yes?
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Edit note: this comment was a response to a comment above before it was edited. To see the original, look at the comment above using pencil icon.
North America, South America, Europe, Asia, Africa, and probably Antarctica.
laws are not stopping the behavior through ~10,000 years of that approach.
I thought conversation might work better to help people ridding themselves of the defilements which cause this suffering for everyone subject to rebirth.
Mat and i have pm conversation, at his availability. _Edit note: Mat chose to respond to the thread rather than the pm, as shown below. _
This is personal for every person who responds, as is usual in conversation. though i am aware some people have responded by untoggling likes previously given to some of my posts; imagine what inspires the use of human life time to “punish” this post…
May ALL beings be happy, be self freed from hate, greed, and delusion; may all be self liberated from the cycle of rebirth.
edit note: i am sorry if i am responsible for causing any suffering, and for any poor speech for which i was responsible. Apparently, a different life experience, a taboo topic, and a non statistics approach to a painful issue was more than the commentators could handle. I found their responses to be shocking, but educational. I thank them for that.
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Just to be clear I’m only vaguely aware of a ‘culture of rape’. A campaign against alcohol and date rape substances might be more useful. Only recently I produced a report for the police about some people who assaulted a learning disabled vulnerable women who was under the influence. I suspect her assailants went to prison, as they were about to release them saying she had given consent. If someone writes a false report for financial gain you can fault that individual, but it would be wrong to say that the vast majority of psychiatrists are corrupt. You might come across one person but you can’t assume you can generalise that person’s personality to an entire profession.
With metta
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For those disturbed by my post… well, i am sorry if my words triggered you. I had not placed the OP in the Watercooler, because i hoped for serious conversation. But it was moved from Discussions to here, because no suttas are being discussed.
If anyone want statistics or laws or theories, please research and write for yourself. Another thread might better serve such work.
If you feel personally insulted by my posts - please talk to me in pm.
I usually like to have statistics and research in front of me as I respond. My impression and recollections of listening to those better informed is that your characterization of the US system is problematic. I could be wrong. There may be elements deserving of constructive reform but if there are you have failed to make me aware of them.
If advocates are unwilling to present evidence for their claims then I’m willing to let them lie. The recent history in the US of overblown, misleading and/or false claims regarding this difficult and emotionally/politically charged issue leaves many weary and IMO appropriately skeptical.
How anyone could idealize Roman civilization is something out of Monty Python. There are still countries today that have leaders that remind me of the Roman overlords.
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@ Feynman
I did not specify the US system.
I did not fail to “make you aware”.
I was not speaking as an advocate.
It is unfortunate that you feel “weary and IMO appropriately skeptical.” Perhaps there are things one could do to relieve that suffering.
The OP was not about psychology or psychiatry. The OP made no statements about all or a majority of any profession mentioned.
This may be a nuance of dialect; in american californian english, “all” is not assumed, without “the” or “all” explicitly expressed. edit: or perhaps that nuance is personal, from the conditioning of this life. But please, distinguish extrapolations from what i actually posted; that certainly generated enough critical responses! How fortunate, to be offered so many “hooks” for thought. 
But ty, i am done with those.
With metta. May all be happy, may all be at peace, may all have the ultimate liberation.
Can anyone verify that something like the following is found in the Vinaya?
“In the book Disposable People: New Slavery in the Global Economy, Kevin Bales […] also points to the fact that ten kinds of wives are outlined in the Vinaya, or rules for monks. Within these rules, the first three are actually women who can be paid for their services.” - Wikipedia
"Child prostitution
The exact number of child-prostitutes in Thailand is not known. According to the US-based research institute “Protection Project”, estimates of the number of children involved in prostitution living in Thailand ranges from 12,000 to the hundreds of thousands (ECPAT International). The government, university researchers, and NGOs estimated that there are as many as 30,000 to 40,000 prostitutes under 18 years of age, not including foreign migrants (US Department of State, 2005b). Thailand’s Health System Research Institute estimates that children in prostitution make up 40% of prostitutes in Thailand.
The reasons why and how children are commercially sexually exploited by include:
Poverty: a high proportion of the population lives in poverty.
Ethnic hill tribe children: these children live in the border region of northern Thailand. They suffer from disproportionate levels of poverty in relation to the general population and most of them lack citizenship cards. This means that they do not have access to health care or primary school, which limits their further education or employment opportunities.
Trafficked children: Many children are trafficked into or within the country through criminal networks, acquaintances, former trafficking victims and border police and immigration officials who transport them to brothels across Thailand.
Sense of duty: According to traditional customs, the first duty of a girl is to support her family in any way she can. Due to this sense of duty and to pay off family debts, many girls have been forced into prostitution.
Children are exploited in sex establishments and are also approached directly in the street by paedophiles seeking sexual contact. Child sex tourism is a serious problem in the country." - Wikipedia
"Social views
Thai society has its own unique set of often contradictory sexual mores… According to a 1996 study, the sexual urge of men is perceived by both Thai men and women as being very much stronger than the sexual urge of women… It is also thought by both Thai men and women that men need “an occasional variation in partners”. As female infidelity is strongly frowned upon in Thai society, and, according to a 1993 survey, sexual relationships for single women also meets disapproval by a majority of the Thai population, premarital sex, casual sex and extramarital sex with prostitutes is accepted, expected and sometimes even encouraged for Thai men, the latter being perceived as less threatening to a marriage over lasting relationships with a so-called “minor wife”." - Wikipedia
Any comments about the slave-wives (see link below) and early Buddhism? Is this a teaching given by the historical Buddha to a lay female disciple? The setting is near Anathapindika’s home - is it not?
How are the different kinds of wives recorded in the Vinaya? Why are they listed in the Vinaya code of conduct?
It would seem, according to this teaching given by the Buddha (is this possible) that a wife who willingly submits to beatings from her husband (whenever he feels inclined) is not advised to get out of the relationship or, seek mediation? As if, this was something that a wife may be willing to accommodate and need not complain about or, not feel that something deeply dysfunctional was taking place in the relationship with their husband? Is there any other way to interpret this teaching? How are we to square this teaching with progressive sensibilities and the ‘rule of law’ in liberal democratic societies? It would appear that ‘Sujata’ was not corrected or, advised not to aspire to be a slave wife - how come? Is this example of ‘Sujata’ taken to be an ‘ideal’ that Buddhist wives should aspire to emulate as an example of how a married Buddhist woman should live with their spouse? Is Sujata’s choice, of the kind of wife she chooses to be being ‘idealised’ as a paragon of married conduct for women?
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Thank you for this refence, Lawrence. It is surprisingly helpful advice in the translation linked above.
edit i.e. remaining calm even if fearful. Though it is odd to endorse fearfulness in anyone; a jakata story… this makes its provinance a little suspect, is that correct?
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I am interested in finding out if any one who frequents this site finds this teaching about slave-wives acceptable and, if so, on what grounds? At the very least, how do we explain how this kind of behaviour could be seen as acceptable in the context of Buddhist practice? I cannot make any sense of this and would appreciate some kind of perspective that makes sense?
Perhaps as a metaphor; fearful or not, remain calm, obedient,… But i agree, it is likely not accepted as advice to all disciples… but as the sexist tale which is its surface.
Remain calm - that can be a good strategy, until you find a way to escape the abuse! In extreme situations, maybe, play dead! Obedient? Are you saying willingly obedient or do you mean ‘feigning’ submission until you can escape - if possible? It is incomprehensible to me how anyone would suggest to a woman who is being physically abused by their husband - whenever he feels the urge - that they should not seek to change that situation or escape! Are we to assume that this Buddha - in the story - found nothing wrong with husbands abusing their wives - literally - wife-beaters? I can’t see how we could come to any other conclusion? Surely, the husband has to stop beating his wife if the relationship is to continue - as a married couple? There does not seem to be anything in this story that suggests something ‘dysfunctional’ is taking place or, am I missing something?
Well, the way i take it at the moment is that a laywoman and monastic women should remain calm, obedient to the Dhamma, no matter what males might do. Not obedient to the husband, but obedient to the Dhamma, which sujato has just Seen. Not obedient to even rhe male sangha, as the authority is superceded.
What do you think? Too much an abstraction?
… this interpretation may have been prompted by the previous life story about the bird singing, and a mention of bird in a cage by a 2011 Dhamma talk by Ajahn Brahm about lay arhants i happened to listen to 30 minutes earlier.
The context is one in which a Buddha is in ear-shot of ‘Sujata’ when she appears to be raising her voice in a way that was seen as ‘unfitting’ or inappropriate. Do you see something ‘abstract’ about that? She then receives a teaching - from the Buddha - on how wives should ‘conduct’ themselves if, they are good wives or naughty - haughty etc.
it is a jataka story. I think a number of them are best understood in the abstract.
Perhaps i am under educated on them; are they not often local popular folk morality tales, often adapted for buddhist or even jain purposes?
@laurence Those pieces of information that you got from wikipedia, except the Sattabharya Sutta, are incorrect and outdated. Though, it’s not surprising since it is wikipedia. Besides, why did you specifically choose Thailand as an example here?
Prostitution, adultery, human trafficking, these things are frowned upon in Thailand. Prostitution and human trafficking are crimes according to the Criminal Code of Thailand. Adultery is one of acceptable reasons for filing a divorce, suing for compensation payment for the spouse who is cheated, or both according to the Civil and Commercial Code of Thailand.