Is full Stream Entry and/or full Nibbana considered Arhatship in Theravada Buddhism?

The Watercooler
21

Ok, I was going to leave this topic but since you’ve kept responding, here goes:

Ah, the main point is to end dukkha. The Buddha said this many times.
None of the responses you’ve written have included sutta citations and you may not have chosen to read the ones that have been posted – that’s your choice, friend.
But the main point of the teachings, as spoken by the Buddha in SN22.86 and MN22 is:

" Pubbe cāhaṁ etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññapemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṁ"
“Formerly and now I declare dukkha and the ending of dukkha.”

And also from MN22:
“Thus the teaching has been well explained by me, made clear, opened, illuminated, and stripped of patchwork. In this teaching there are mendicants who are perfected, who have ended the defilements, completed the spiritual journey, done what had to be done, laid down the burden, achieved their own goal, utterly ended the fetters of rebirth, and are rightly freed through enlightenment. For them, there is no cycle of rebirths to be found.”

“They understand: ‘Rebirth is ended, the spiritual journey has been completed, what had to be done has been done, there is no return to any state of existence.’”

I mean, the ending of rebirth and dukkha as the main purpose of the teachings is everywhere in the suttas.

Of course, along the way, there is compassion, guidance, helping, and metta. I’ve acknowledged this in prior posts. We agree about this. :slightly_smiling_face:

But they are not only worthy in themselves but also a means to an end – the ending of dukkha.
MN22, the Buddha:
“Mendicants, I will teach you how the Dhamma is similar to a raft: it’s for crossing over, not for holding on.”

Be well,
Santi

1 Like
22

Yes, i do not denie that.

I feel the sutta’s are confusing. I do see in the sutta’s that the Buddha did not search blindly and did not by accident realised peace and detachment or ultimate emptiness. No, it is very clear from some sutta’s, for me, that he allready knew that peace, emptiness, cessation, dispassion is there and not absent. He also recognised this peace as happiness.

He knew that his task was nothing else then to remove everything from mind that builds a new home, in this life and next. Because building up also means desintegrating again. That is not peaceful. This is about the teachings on food. What you do not take in you also do not have to digest.

This proces he was very aware of. To attain peace the mind must stop building up, stop grasping and also stop accumulating or wanting to possess this or that or have this or that or even attain this or that.

What does build up? What is the constructor? The Buddha knew he had to remove it to attain peace.

He was not practicing blindly. If one has no recognition of the actual presence of peace, dispassion, cessation, one practices blindly.

Maybe his awakening under the Bodhitree was a kind of climax but i do not belief that before that he was really ignorant and clueless and did not recognise the presence of peace, dispassion, emptiness, cessation, the stilling of all formations.

1 Like
23

Yes. I agree that Tathagata has the freedom to choose to live however long they wish. But I think you must not forget about the instances where Enlightened(arahant) beings immediately die after reaching enlightenment. Ex: Bāhiyasutta(SuttaCentral).
It’s repeatedly emphasized that only by becoming a follower of Buddha, that they could remain. I think this means that enlightened beings doesn’t wish to stay a moment longer in samsara and but if they choose to become followers of Buddha, they choose to stay to help in Buddha’s quest to enlighten more beings.
On other hand Buddha also explained that those who have developed 4 powers(iddiphada) have the ability to live as long as they wish. But Buddha still chose parinibbana instead of staying alive. Why? This is to give an example for the followers who may choose to stay alive. Buddha taught that you should only live for a natural lifetime and does not allow the use of supernormal(magical) means to spread the dhamma.

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24

This Buddha Dhamma is neither pessimistic or nihilistic.

25

I am not sure what Buddha would say about this, but my feeling is that Buddha would not disapprove of the wish to be reborn again in samsara or keep helping others. One can also argue…why should one not make use of this potential?

I believe supernormal powers can sometimes be used to convince others. I read a writing on Atisha. He said that supernormal powers is a must for someone who wants to spiritually guide others. Someone without might do good for many lives, but he says that cannot even match the merit of one day of someone with supernormal powers.