No. In the suttas there is a cutting off point with the value of generosity between mundane and transcendent right view.
“If one were to develop even for just a finger-snap the perception of inconstancy, that would be more fruitful than the gift, the great gift, that Velāma the brahman gave, and [in addition to that] if one were to feed one person… 100 people consummate in view, and were to feed one once-returner… 100 once-returners, and were to feed one non-returner… 100 non-returners, and were to feed one arahant… 100 arahants, and were to feed one Private Buddha… 100 Private Buddhas, and were to feed a Tathagata — a worthy one, rightly self-awakened — and were to feed a community of monks headed by the Buddha, and were to have a dwelling built and dedicated to the Community of the four directions, and with a confident mind were to go to the Buddha, Dhamma, & Sangha for refuge, and with a confident mind were to undertake the training rules — refraining from taking life, refraining from taking what is not given, refraining from illicit sex, refraining from lying, refraining from distilled & fermented drinks that cause heedlessness — and were to develop even just one whiff of a heart of good will.”—AN 9.20
In addition I was reading the links I gave and thought this was interesting:
Giving functions in the Buddhist discipline in a different capacity. It does not come at the apex of the path, as a factor constituent of the process of awakening, but rather it serves as a basis and preparation which underlies and quietly supports the entire endeavor to free the mind from the defilements.
It’s more of a preparation (or a way to gain merit?) to follow the noble truths. I’m not sure why generosity wouldn’t make sense to be part of it, though.
I have a question for you. Somewhat off topic. Is it, I guess, wrong to want a good rebirth even though the goal is the opposite to no longer be reborn?
“Monks, one who hasn’t abandoned nine things is incapable of realizing arahantship. Which nine? Passion, aversion, delusion, anger, resentment, arrogance, insolence, envy, & stinginess. One who hasn’t abandoned these nine things is incapable of realizing arahantship.
“One who has abandoned nine things is capable of realizing arahantship. Which nine? Passion, aversion, delusion, anger, resentment, arrogance, insolence, envy, & stinginess. One who has abandoned these nine things is capable of realizing arahantship.”
Is there a difference between abandoning stinginess and being generous?
In any case, IMO the sutta (AN 5.31) is talking about the result of past-life generosity in a subsequent life. So IMO, the point is that the path to Arahantship isn’t necessarily closed for those who haven’t been generous in lives previous to the one in which they choose to go forth
I’m not stating an own opinion (can’t read the pali-source). But it might be interesting how Ven. Nyanatiloka looks at it. In a footnote he writes
(*1) Mit dem ‘eigenen Heil’ ist natürlich nicht der materielle Vorteil, sondern das wahre Heil, die Läuterung von den eigenen Schwächen und Leidenschaften gemeint. Dieses Heil wird von dem vernachlässigt, der ausschließlich zum Heile anderer wirkt und seinen eigenen inneren Fortschritt außer acht läßt. Da aus diesem Grunde seine Wirksamkeit nicht volle Frucht tragen kann und er selbst stets in der Gefahr sittlichen und geistigen Rückschrittes steht, ist er dem dritten Menschentyp unterlegen. Vgl. auch die folgenden Texte.
(*1) By ‘one’s own salvation’ is meant, of course, not material advantage, but true salvation, purification from one’s own weaknesses and passions. This salvation is neglected by him who works exclusively for the salvation of others and disregards his own inner progress. Since for this reason his effectiveness cannot bear full fruit and he himself is always in danger of moral and spiritual regression, he is inferior to the third type of man. Cf. also the following texts. (translation from german using deepl.com)
(german version from palikanon.com, “Die deutsche Übersetzung ist dem fünfbändigen Werk von Nyanatiloka/Nyanaponika, Aurum Verlag Freiburg 1984 und der Ausgabe vom buddhistischen Verlag Leipzig 1907 (Anguttara 1), Walter Markgraf Breslau 1911 (Anguttara 2) und 1914 (Anguttara 3) entnommen.” - Note: the footnote is not visible in the suttacentral-parallel, which itself is taken from that same Nyanatiloka-translation digitized at palikanon.com, https://palikanon.com/angutt/a04_091-100.html#a_iv95)
Dear Carlita, In my understanding it is neither ‘wrong’ nor unskillful to want a good rebirth
One of the beautiful and liberating things of the Law of Dependent Arising, is that it means that the conditions and time needs to be right, all the factors need to come together, in order for other things to occur. When this - then this…
The gradual training is a process of gradual step-by-step conditioning in a particular direction. One has to go through this process the whole way through the Noble 8 fold Path. There is a simile that from milk (+ specific conditions) comes curds, from curds comes butter, from butter comes ghee…
This illustrates a conditioned step by step transformation.
In the case of the Path, one has to put this cause and effect action, this conditioning process, into effect on ones own Mind. As such, one starts by a bit of Right View, which gives impetus to beginning to develop the factors of Sila. Here we see positive or wholesome desire in effect. This wholesome desire is to reduce suffering. This includes not wanting to be reborn in a plane of suffering, and to want a good re-birth. Of course this is not only a good, but a necessary thing Without this there would really be no motivation > effort > energy etc to provide the required momentum for practice.
It is truly wonderful and a win -win situation. As one moves along the Path everything keeps getting better. If the work isn’t finished before one dies, then one has moved to a better point, a good rebirth, and can start from a more advanced position to continue the process in the next life No way to loose on this Path!
Further, as one moves along the Path, and the conditioned transformation moves further along the process, and Right View keeps developing (can’t do it any faster!), as RV develops, this influences perception. As perception changes in line with RV and Wisdom, one grows dispassionate and naturally starts to develop Nibida towards many wordly things and renunciation/Nekkhama is a natural result.
As one moves further and further along this conditioned process, even the idea of existence is relinquished. This can really only occur once that the 3 characteristics are fully penetrated. If one still has any sense of self, then the desire for an end to existence is akin to annihilation. So there is no point in trying to push for this prematurely
The focus needs to be on developing the path and reconditioning oneself, to get to the point of seeing clearly, when Nibbana is a natural consequence. Dependent Arising - just beautiful
When this - then this
Wordling/puthujjana (+ conditions) > trainee > in the stream > Arahant > Nibbana
Here is a beautiful visual representation from Ven Yodha’s doodles about crossing to the other shore It’s in the beautiful Dhamma doodles thread
So it is my understanding that during the process of moving along the Path, ones Desires and the type of craving becomes more refined and skillful - less and less driven by defilements. So as in the Buddhas simile, the carpenter uses a finer peg to dislodge a larger/coarser peg, so too does one develop the skill to use ever more wholesome desires to move one further along the Path. It is necessary. SO please use the desire for a good rebirth to good effect :-D.
As craving is penetrated and understood it is increasingly (more deeply) relinquished. As the craving changes, so too does the desire for types of rebirths, (this is a natural process, not done by Will) becoming ever more refined - until finally - Extinguishment - Nibbana
Just bringing it back to the question of the necessity for generosity. In my understanding, this is an absolute requirement in the first steps of the path and building the foundation for the gradual training. Without it the process won’t work. The path is structured to condition those who walk it… No sila > no samadhi > no Panna.
It is only with the abolishment of all craving - aranhantship - that it is no longer necessary. At this point the Buddha says that one no longer needs to carry the raft, but can put it down. What needed to be done has been done
Of course, being generous is always a wise way to behave for all the reasons outlined in the originally cited sutta… and there is no reason why it should cease with attainments, but at the conclusion of the path it is no longer necessary and there is no more craving (wholesome or unwholesome) driving it.
IMO it is a yes and a no. It is yes, or there is a difference if generosity is practiced with the aim of achieving something better now or later which is what most people do. That is people give expecting something in return. I have heard people say “we need to give in order to get”. So these people are generous and stingy at the same time.
But there is no deference if the giver understands why they give. That is they should give with the sole expectation that the receiver will have better life or whatever and without expecting anything in return. That is the noble giving where abandoning stinginess will naturally result by being generous.
With Metta
This is related but the Buddha held those who practiced for their benefit and others in the highest regard, even above those who practiced for their own benefit.
I will be listing a number of Suttas and the pertinate point of said Sutta.
4 kinds of people (from lowest to highest): practice for no ones benefit, practice for others benefit, practice for their benefit, practice for their and others benefit
Definitions for lay followers: lay follower, an ethical lay follower, a lay follower practicing for their own benefit, and a lay follower practicing for their own benefit and others.
So, I would posit that if generosity is needed or not is not too big of a concern, it is still to be praised and encouraged either way.
The term, dāna, is simply not mentioned in the noble eightfold path. Brahma-vihara is Kullaka-vihara ‘Family-meditative state’, not Mahapurisa-vihara, which is Sunnata-vihara ‘Emptiness-meditative state’. Cf. pp. 12, 62 in Choong Mun-keat’s The Notion of Emptiness in Early Buddhism.
With respect, imho, the sutta does not point to an “ungenerous arahant.” In the absence of avijjā and all defilements, what is left “to be” generous or ungenerous? In this sense, all “liberated minds”, arahants, are without distinction. This is perhaps what the Buddha pointed to in AN 5.31.
Whereas, during the cultivation/practice stage, the Buddha clearly points to the benefits of generosity. For example see MN 140: For this is the ultimate noble generosity, namely, Eso hi, bhikkhu, paramo ariyo cāgo yadidaṁ— letting go of all attachments. sabbūpadhipaṭinissaggo. (Ven. Sujato).
So while pre-arahants need to cultivate dāna and other wholesome qualities, the arahants, being utterly free of self-view and hindrances, can’t be labeled generous or ungenerous any more than space can be labeled in these ways.
While the khandas are still present, aspects of personality will remain until parinibbāna. So maybe some appear to be gruff to other beings – but can a citta liberated from greed, anger, and ignorance, not being here, there, or anywhere, be “ungenerous”?
I think parsing words in this narrow manner can lead to a false impression of what the noble eightfold path, and Buddhist practice in general is all about.
Giving, relinquishment, letting go of things, a generosity of heart and mind, and a lack of miserliness lead to a wholesome quality of mind essential for progress along the path.
-“Buddhism begins with generosity”
Ven. P.A. Payutto, Buddhadhamma- The Laws of Nature and their Benefits to Life, p. 932-933
also from the same:
“The practice of generosity and self-sacrifice helps to enhance and beautify
the mind. It makes the mind receptive, obliging, and intent on goodness.
It fortifies the mind, integrates wholesome intentions, and prepares
the mind for relinquishment. It makes the mind clear, spacious, relaxed,
and bright. It is conducive to concentration, to mental purification, and
to higher spiritual states. The delight and happiness of generosity alone is
greatly beneficial to one’s meditation, to the development of tranquillity
and insight. For this reason, laypeople who have reached a level of
awakening are still dedicated to the act of giving and sharing.”
Choong doesn’t really make much of a case, merely referring his reader to the entry for kullakavihāra in the PTS dictionary. The dictionary gives only one citation for the term, in the Vinaya’s account of the Second Council. Indeed this appears to be the only place in the Pali Tipitaka where the term is found.
Pace Choong, the term is used only as a term for mettabhāvanā, not all four brahmavihāras.
More importantly, the passage in question – a dialogue between two arahants – conveys no implication that kullakavihāra (whose meaning, btw, seems rather uncertain) is in any way a term of slight or that it denotes something inferior to mahāpurisavihāra.
As you can see, Ven. Brahmali has rendered it “noble meditation”, presumably on the grounds that kūlas are high-class families.
Getting up early in the morning, Sabbakāmī said to Revata,
“My friend, what’s your main meditation?”
“My main meditation, Sir, is good will.”
“Your meditation is noble (kullaka), for good will is a noble meditation.”
“In the past, too, when I was a householder, I habitually practiced good will, and now it’s my main meditation. Besides, I attained perfection long ago. But what’s your main meditation?”
“My main meditation is emptiness.”
“Your meditation is that of a great man, for emptiness is the meditation of a great man.”
“In the past, too, when I was a householder, I habitually practiced emptiness, and now it’s my main meditation. Besides, I attained perfection long ago.”
It is very likely that the Buddha did not teach the 4 brahma-vihāras. This is because the 4 brahma-vihāras are not part of the paths in the Maha Vagga of SN/SA.
It’s true they don’t occur often in the Mahāvagga, but nonetheless they are to be found in five suttas in the Mahāvagga’s Bojjhangsamyutta: SN46.54, SN46.62, SN46.63, SN46.64 and SN46.65, wherein it’s taught that they may serve as a basis for development of the seven factors of enlightenment.
No way to loose on this Path!
