Is Hell a Kama existence?

I already posted what the suttas say.

DN 15 literally says the various six realms are “jati”.

DN 15 also says there are only three bhava.

I don’t dispute that.

I am just questioning what’s the relationship between the 3 existences of sensual, form and formless with the 6 realms of rebirth, hell, animal, ghost, asura, humans and the various gods.

I was merely suggesting at the beginning of the topic there is attachment to & bhava in materiality (jhana) causing both rebirth as a heavenly being and then later rebirth as a hell-being.

Therefore, it seems, any of the three bhava can lead to rebirth into hell. :sunny:

I think the usual way of interpreting this is that before the rebirth as hell being happens, the mind of the Brahma being is already deposited in the sensual realm existence, likely due to past kamma ripening rather than the actions of the being while still in Brahma realm. Not that the mind is still in the form existence and still lead to rebirth in the hell realm.

Oh I sort of get what you might be saying for the importance of separating the two.

So in human realm, it’s jāti. But the mind of a human can be of sensual existence, form or formless (both the later needs deep stages of meditation). So within the realm itself, the existence can change, but the rebirth realm can only change after death.

And it’s the change of the mind states which leads to rebirth to the various realms, depending on which state of existence the mind is in at the time of death.

Thanks again, it does clarify for me what’s existence better.

PS. Also, I don’t find the text you quoted in MN95. I think mis-cited.

Yes, I was waiting for you to post the above. It seems to be the creative Theravada Mindset I referred to in my 1st post. All the best. :pray:t2:

MN 93 :pray:t2:

Hi @NgXinZhao @CurlyCarl,
If you wish to continue your already developed discussion, I would recommend the PM function so that others may be encouraged to offer their answers to the OP.

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