Is intention to watch breathing, craving?

Q & A
1

Continuing the discussion from Why Buddha used breath (air) as anchor for his meditation?:

Buddha said the hunger is the old craving. So he advocates to be mindful of eating and has given a set of instruction to eliminate old habits.
It appears intention to breath also an old craving even though I can’t support that with Sutta.
The question is, if the intention to breath is the craving how would we eliminate that craving. However, I do not think the intention to watch breathing is the craving but it is the remedy for getting rid of that.

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Hi @SarathW1,

I am unsure how you could qualify that the intention to keep one body’s alive is the “old craving”.

In such case I try to stick with the core teaching: the definitions for craving (or wanting) from the 4 noble truth (I normally quote SN56.11, but others would suit just fine).

If there is a craving for breathing (pleasant fragrance, clean fresh air, what else?) most likely it would be the feelings or perception that one associates with the breathing that would need to be relinquished, rather than breathing itself.

With metta,
/\

3

Perhaps, you may be correct but you have to understand this in terms of 16 steps of Anapanasati.

4

Could you give a sutta reference for this? I think hunger is a natural bodily response to low nutritional levels. Greed for food, when not hungry is different to that.

Breathing happens without us knowing it. So it while not impossible, that makes it unlikely it is craving.

Again, breathing is quite a natural thing. But we can intentionally breath and sometimes meditators go out of breath trying to force the breath into how they think it should be! This is only possible AFAIK with the ‘modifications’ suggested by the Buddha in the Ananapanasati sutta.

Some cravings are helpful on the path and sometimes considered ‘wholesome’ because of that (‘canda’)- this includes craving for wanting to practice the path.

with metta

5

'Thus will I destroy old feelings [of hunger] and not create new feelings [from overeating].

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.159.than.html

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In this sutta (where a nun attempts to seduce Ven Ananda) the following is said:

"‘This body, sister, comes into being through food. And yet it is by relying on food that food is to be abandoned.’ Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said? There is the case, sister, where a monk, considering it thoughtfully, takes food — not playfully, nor for intoxication, nor for putting on bulk, nor for beautification — but simply for the survival & continuance of this body, for ending its afflictions, for the support of the holy life, [thinking,] ‘Thus will I destroy old feelings [of hunger] and not create new feelings [from overeating]. I will maintain myself, be blameless, & live in comfort.’ Then he eventually abandons food, having relied on food. ‘This body, sister, comes into being through food. And yet it is by relying on food that food is to be abandoned.’ AN4.159

I understand this to mean that this person will eat to reduce hunger pangs and not give rise to pain from overeating.

I find that hunger pangs are a good indication that my body actually needs food, rather than craving for food.

with metta

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Your body is the result of your old Kamma.
Hence the activities in your body are the craving of the past.
Hence we can say, they are the old craving.

8

[quote=“SarathW1, post:1, topic:5545”]
The question is, if the intention to breath is the craving how would we eliminate that craving. However, I do not think the intention to watch breathing is the craving but it is the remedy for getting rid of that.
[/quote]I think your post indirectly intersects with Kv 9.2, “Of the Deathless as an Object by which we are bound”.

I realize the relevance may not be tangible on the surface layer, but to me, your OP is questioning if the intention behind mindfulness of breathing is itself craving, or, an object by which we are bound. Or, more indirectly (and here is where I might to off-track) if there are elements of the Dharma which are in-and-of-themselves, even when “properly” actionalized, that might become fetters in-and-of-themselves (Christians and Westerners might use the term “false idols”).

The ending of Kv 9.2 (not an EBT, but relevant, IMO) might offer some guidance, if I mangle it [mangling in square brackets]:[quote]You affirm that, on account of the [practice of applying intention to watch breath] occupying the mind, lust, hate, ignorance may spring up. But are you prepared to admit that the [practice of applying intention to watch breath] itself conduces to occasions for lusting, to lusting after, wishing for, being inebriated, and captivated by, languishing for? That it conduces to occasions for hatred, anger, and resentment? That it conduces to occasions for delusion, for depriving of knowledge, for blinding vision, for suspending insight, for siding with trouble, for failing to win Nibbāna? Is it not rather the opposite of all these? How then can you say that, on account of the [this craving] occupying the mind, lust, hate, and ignorance spring up? All these things you may truly predicate as springing up because of the occupation of the mind with material qualities (rūpa) [added: of the practice of applying intention to watch breath]. But material qualities are not the [practice].[/quote]I replaced deathless in a few places and added some words at the end. The end doesn’t quite match up nicely, but, suffice to say, any ill cravings that would arise, theoretically, would not arise from “proper” practice.

I hope this is not irrelevant.

If the intention to watch breathing was tantamount to ill cravings, I suspect the Buddha would have made a note of that when instructing to watch breathing, yes?

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9

Not all intention involves craving. An arahant still has intention but not craving. It is rather, his intention is not tainted by craving anymore.

It is not intention that Buddha said we should remove.

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10

This is very relevant, thanks for bringing it up.

It is noteworthy that the Anapanasati​ steps are mostly about one’s application to conscious training or practice towards the right way of breathing mindfully, which in turn is said to be powerful enough to bring about awakening: 14 of the 16 steps are framed using the active verb sikkhati . The first two steps are framed using the more passive verb pajanati.

11

My understanding is:
Intention to breath is craving.
The intention behind mindfulness of breathing is not craving but it is the antidote for that craving.