New York three star hotel for USD 85.00
and get the yogis to read the macchariya verses in the sagatha vagga S.N for hiri ottapa, I.e after before a teaching/mediation session, getting people reading short suttaâs on importance of giving conditions the viewâŚintentionâŚkaya kammaâŚat least thats what I try to do
Bhante could you explain this?
I do not understand the connection of macchariy and hiri ottapa to do with giving.
Namo Buddhaya Sarath,
What i meant was that in relation to the discussion in which it was said that in some cases say after a group sit in a buddhist center, it sometimes is the case that regulars or newcomers may not be that accustomed to the concept- much less the practice- of giving. So in my experience, i also often wondered why, that say in my case for example-going âpindacaraâ in a village- day after day, week after week, month after month, some houses donât ever give. So the cause for âsamma-sankappaâ to arise is either a dhamma talk on the benefits of Dana, or one day we finally get itâŚâdinnam sukhaphalam hotiâ that which is given brings happiness!!
So in the verses i mentioned in the sagatha vagga to do with dana are a good starting point for the âdana-sanyaâ to become 'nekkhama sankappa, â in that if you read buddha-vacana regularly everytime the group comes together then the tendency towards ahiri-anatoppa-macchariya and hence âa heap of the unwholesomeâ would become âhiri-otappa-samma-sankappa samaptti hoti,â sorry for all the pali wordsâŚ
A classic quote from the dhammpada 'He who is slow in doing good, his mind delights in evilâŚâShould a person do good, let him do it again and again. Let him find pleasure therein, for blissful is the accumulation of goodâŚâ papa vagga
So not giving when one can, even if its a little still counts, so if we dont cultivate hiri otappa in relation to dana, by remembering the words of the buddha on the subject then it wonât be second nature for participants at buddhist centers/meditation retreats to naturally want to give. That was the point i was trying to make, dana is sila, dana is a also hiri otappa, so in that sense dana is the cause for the non arisiing of the five macchariya .A.N 5, which from my experience in monasteries and dhamma centeres are always lurking in the backgroundâŚso dana dana dana, how was thatâŚ?
Namo Buddhaya
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yeah, sorry, it does rather obscure the meaning of what youâre trying to get at for me.
Can you explain this?
How Dana is hiri otappa?
We should move away from the idea that people âoweâ us money or dana. It is not wholesome to have this sense of superiority and entitlement.
The Buddha was given horse-food once. Him and his maha-arahanths had this food for a week. There is a lesson to be learnt in that story.
The Buddha always said be contended in the robes and dana that was given.
The main thing is the practice.
with metta
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That is a very relevant point here. Right now, I am in a financial situation where I literally cannot pay for Dhamma like at all. Well, okay, if I save money for a couple of months, I will maybe be able to pay like 100 Euros, but thatâs pretty much it. It means that a huge chunk of meditation courses and retreats is literally out of reach for me, and by the global standards I am a pretty affluent person as I am not starving, Iâm having decent accommodation and medical help available to me at all times, and yet I am limited in my access to the gift of the Dhamma.
I know of courses and retreats (albeit mostly offered by monastics) that can be taken free of charge, but donations are encouraged. I think this is the way to go, since if a person goes to a retreat and is miserly enough to not pay what they can, then why do they want to take a retreat instead on working on their ethical conduct in the first place? Instead, people can offer all help they can provide: menial tasks, constructing work, cooking, whatever.
If a lay teacher has to charge for his or her Dhamma courses because they have mouths to feed, the question arises whether we really need full-time lay Dhamma teachers. I mean, if they can be sustained by donations, sure, why not. If it turns out they canât and they have to charge money for their knowledge of Dhamma, they just should stop being full-time lay teachers and finance their living with some other work, as you rightly pointed out.
If you want to teach Dhamma full-time, why donât you become, you know, a monk or a nun? If you donât have an opportunity or enough courage to go forth, well, why not teach Dhamma part-time relying on donations or physical work equal to the size of a necessary payment? Otherwise, compulsory payments for Dhamma lessons will always lead to some people being unable to hear the Truth. And with all due respect for so many awesome and selfless lay Dhamma teachers, commercialization of Dhamma will lead to it being, well, a business with all the bad things that it entails.
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a very valid question, especially since people may be drawn to lay teachers for their ability to actually be, you know⌠LAY, as in living in the world, job , family etc, as opposed to surviving from donations like a monastic.
agreed.
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âThe Buddha was given horse-food once, Him and his maha-arahanths had this food for a week.â you donât seriously believe that do you? Itâs not the case that a samana has to accept everything offered to them unonconditionally, much less the idea of feaces as foodâŚthats also a âditthiâ that comes up sometimesâŚâwhy didnât you accept what was given to you by hard working laypeople, its ungrateful etc to refuse etcâŚâ
The context of the reply was in relation to dhamma centres/viharaâs, so as regards the question as to whether laypoeple should charge for teaching the answer i would say is its relative to the situation/person. Say teachers in the Goenka tradtion donât need to find ways of creating financial aid for their centres/themselves -at least the ones iâve been to- because it seems that they can maintain themselves without too much trouble.
So the context is not say -me a monastic giving a talk about dana so i can get money- if thatâs whatâs being implyed, but finding skillfull ways to create the means nececssary so that the/dhamma centre or even vihara can maintain its existence. So often times there is often this attitudeâŚ
As long as the presentation on dana is done skillfully then it -the fact the dhamma centre is in need of support- means that people have an opportunity to give, and create the path factors -the pali words i mentioned- samma-ditthi which meanâs right view, samma-sankappa / right intention. There is also the view that generosity is something that âasian buddhists do,â or its not the real practice etc, its also a common misperception that often comes with not quite getting the âmajjhima patipadaâ thing going and doing to many vipass-anukilesaâ courses
[quote=âMat, post:47, topic:3860â]
The Buddha always said be contended in the robes and dana that was given.[/quote]⌠one abides contemplating âbyapada sankappaâ
â Think not lightly of good, sayingâŚ
Dana IS the practice!!, maybe contemplate the meaning of ânekkhama-sankappa,â and its place as the 2nd path factor, which logically needs cultivation before the other exalted ones can ariseâŚ
And lastly from what iâve seen for some people stinginess is a such a major obstacle to the attainment of basic wholesome things, you could say generosity in one sense is âthe whole practice,â so donât underestimate the power of itâŚ
let go of ditthi-mana and metta will arise
Thanissaro Bhikkhu suggests exactly this. He notes:
Virtue, concentration, and discernment, in turn, are all based on the most fundamental part of the training: the practice of generosity. (Thanissaro Bhikkhu, With Each & Every Breath, p.14)
Elsewhere, he also sets out very coherently why heâs saddened to find âthe dana talkâ being given in the context of the end of a retreat.
When such a presentation is given a situation when there is a very clear line of potential personal interest (ie. âgiving is good and, by the way, hereâs the bowl for your moneyâ), Iâd feel unsure about how skilful it is, as it leaves room for doubts about motivation (and connected mind clouding agitations) to arise and limit the sense of security one has to just engage with the pure beauty of the Buddhaâs teachings on generosity.
As a general point on the matter, I think that only focusing on one side of the picture - teacher/student (and what they might not be doing right ;)) - canât really properly answer the question. I lean towards the idea that all parties need to take proper responsibility, within whatever capacity they have, for ensuring the teachings are both carried forward and accessible to all who would access them.
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In the context of the discussion i would say weâll yes, its done in the interest of the survival of the sasana/ dhamma centre/vihara/, so there shouldnât really even be a question as to âshould we,?â more whats the best way to do itâŚ
I/we have maybe not an interest but an obligation to do what is -as was quoted- [quote=âAminah, post:51, topic:3860â]
fundamental part of the training: the practice of generosity. (Thanissaro Bhikkhu, With Each & Every Breath, p.14)
[/quote]
In the case of supporting an individual monastic a samana, its a little bit more relative.
I disagree. We can always give more. Talking about Dana is not mooching- thats the impression im getting from you here friends- If the topic of dana was covered during the retreat then i would say it still helps to remind people as sometimes people just arnât necessarily perceptive of the challenges of maintaining a dhamma centre, or that dana has as a specific âkala/timeâ that has its own vipaka/result see A.N 5 (forget the sutta name/number). When i used to sit Goenka courses i never even had the concept that after a retreat that would be the apporpriate time to do âdana,â or offer some service of some kind, because dhammasakkaccha/talking about dhammaâ is only for the teachers. Again talking about dana during or at the end of a retreat, is helpful in conditioning he mind so it perceives/thinks in accordance with the dhamma, so actually the more the better, as i stated as long as its not done unskillfully, its always good to do it. The point is that we can make the connection between right intention / nekkhama sankappa and the âdana patipada,â hence fulfill basic path factors, which is a necessity not a question
Well one answer is because our society and culture inculcate the value of being a good consumer - ie getting as much as you can for as little as you can. As the US President-elect said about not paying taxes for many years in spite of being a billionaire âThat makes me smart!â People do really need to be taught the value of giving - something very beautiful that you see in Buddhist cultures.
I think your idea of how to run a retreat is wonderful - and the way monasteries do it, so far as I have seen.[quote=âBhante_Darma, post:50, topic:3860â]
Dana IS the practice!!,
[/quote]
Ajahn Sucitto gave a very beautiful talk on this recently: Generosity is Enlightenment
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Indeed Suravira!, the more âdana katha/talk on danaâ the better!!! One skillfull thing i just thought of was to -after a retreat/ group sitting- encourage the yogis to share dhamma. For example share their experience of what its like to go âagainst the stream.â How stinginess creates suffering for us and how practicing dana helps to abandon our dukkhaâŚThat is if they are at a point where it has even entered their citta- which it seems isntât necessarily the case here on S.C.
When i first went to a wat and saw the monks on alms round i remember how it almost brought tears to my eyesâŚthe wisdom of the Buddha goes straight to the heart
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For my part, that most certainly not the idea I wished to convey.
Sorry, I should have been more precise in my application of the phrase âpersonal interestâ. I specifically meant having a material stake in the matter.
I by no means wanted to suggest that, that isnât possible, nor that it isnât excellent when such a talk is received as being helpful. I just wanted to highlight that there are other potential results, too, and so the care required needs to be of a particularly high level - one of such strength that it has no trouble recognising that abuses can and do happen in our world and that can lead to people feeling uneasy, vulnerable and suspicious, which in turn pleases even greater emphasis on the need to proceed with sensitivity.
Acknowledging and paying due care to the concern of the possibility of a talk about dana being used in an coercive way does not compete against ensuring the survival of the Dhamma, but, I would suggest, is part of ensuring its survival, as (in my view) erosions in the integrity of the way in which we go about maintaining the Dhamma are erosions in the teachings supposedly maintained.
However, again, Iâd really put an emphasis on looking at the whole picture and taking into account all the related concerns rather than pursuing them from one narrow line. Yes, there is an important and difficult question set about how to maintain centres/viharas and those not inclined to âstep upâ (within their means/capabilities) might want to reflect on the implications of their passivity for the future of the community. Yes, teaching about generosity is essential and all might want to reflect on how awesome the Dhamma is. And, yes, there is are legitimate concerns about the potential for teaching on generosity to be overly driving by potential material rewards reaped as a result and those not inclined to recognise this (and more broadly admit that we live in a world in which abuse is commonplace which can leave people feeling very vulnerable) might want to reflect on how easily people can be harmed.
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Thanissaro Bhikkhu, in the paper @Aminah references above says that there should be teachings on dana during the retreat, but no âDana talkâ at the end that might make anyone feel like they are expected to give. Itâs a really good paper.
Itâs a bit nervous-making because he is coming to teach here and I will be expected (by the center) to give a Dana talk, but he wonât allow it!!! 
(Actually I love it that we can offer his retreat without a fee, and that he wonât allow anyone to suggest that the Dhamma should or could be paid for!)
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If I can replace my present job with a paid Dhamma teacher, I will be very happy to do it.
I know I can make a better contribution to the world even if I get paid for it.
Dhamma is practiced in many levels.
We should not expect the standard of monks to be applied to lay people.
We should pay attention to the ultimate results not how we get there.
I think this essay by Ajahn Thanissaro would be a nice reading for those interested in this topic:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/nostringsattached.html
From which I quote:
The origin stories to the monastic discipline â the tales portraying the misbehavior that led the Buddha to formulate rules for the monks and nuns â often tell of monastics whose gift of Dhamma came with strings attached, and of lay people who gladly pulled those strings to get what they wanted out of the monastics: personal favors served with an ingratiating smile. The Buddhaâs steady persistence in formulating rules to cut these strings shows how determined he was that the principle of Dhamma as a genuinely free gift not be an idle ideal. He wanted it to influence the way people actually behaved.
He never gave an extended explanation of why the act of teaching should always be a gift, but he did state in general terms that when his code of conduct became corrupt over time, that would corrupt the Dhamma as well. And in the case of the etiquette of generosity, this principle has been borne out frequently throughout Buddhist history.
(âŚ) once the culture of dana gets distorted, it can distort the practice of Dhamma as a whole for many centuries. So if weâre serious about bringing the culture of dana to the West, we should be very careful to ensure that our efforts honor the principles that make dana a genuinely Buddhist practice. This means no longer using the tactics of modern fundraising to encourage generosity among retreatants or Buddhists in general. It also means rethinking the dana talk, for on many counts it fails the test. In pressuring retreatants to give to teachers, it doesnât lead to gladness before giving, and instead sounds like a plea for a tip at the end of a meal. The frequent efforts to pull on the retreatantsâ heartstrings as a path to their purse strings betray a lack of trust in their thoughtfulness and leave a bad taste. And the entire way dana is handled for teachers doesnât escape the fact that itâs payment for services rendered. Whether teachers think about this consciously or not, it pressures them subtly to tell their listeners what they think their listeners want to hear. The Dhamma canât help but suffer as a result.
The ideal solution would be to provide a framework whereby serious Dhamma practitioners could be supported whether or not they taught. That way, the act of teaching would be a genuine gift. In the meantime, though, a step in the direction of a genuine culture of dana would be to declare a moratorium on all dana talks at the end of retreats, and on references to the Buddhist tradition of dana in fundraising appeals, so as to give the word time to recover its dignity.
On retreats, dana could be discussed in a general way, in the context of the many Dhamma talks given on how best to integrate Dhamma practice in daily life. At the end of the retreat, a basket could be left out for donations, with a note that the teacher hasnât been paid to teach the retreat. Thatâs all. No appeals for mercy. No flashcards. Sensitive retreatants will be able to put two and two together, and will feel glad, inspired, and gratified that they were trusted to do the math for themselves.
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Me too!
The perils of discrete links 
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Sorry @Aminah, I did look for explicit links and/or quotes to this article before posting it and did not find it.
I give you all the credit 
and really think people should check it out. Ajahn Thanissaro was very skillful in his choice of words and arguments in this essay!
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