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Is Karajakaya Sutta the words of Buddha?

Q & A
#1

Hello all,

I have read many sources and have difficulty in reaching the conclusion about this Sutta [AN 10.219]. One source says there was error in transmission, another says Chinese Madhayma Agama and Tibetan text are more complete version, another source says this Sutta is actually some parts of other Sutta.

The first paragraph of this Sutta says:

“I do not say that there is making an end of suffering so long as one has not experienced the results of volitional kamma that has been done and accumulated”.

This seems to be contradict with Buddha’s teaching. We know Angulimala still experienced the results of his bad vipaka after he attained enlightenment, so did Maha Mogallana and Buddha himself.

In short, are those words actually Buddha’s words, does anyone know about this Sutta?

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#2

Yes, this suttas seems to have been influenced by the Jains. The idea that one must experience the results of all kamma before one can make an end of suffering it is typical of the Jains. Ven. Analayo has analysed this sutta (Karma and Liberation – The Karajakāya-sutta (AN 10.208) in the Light of its Parallels), but unfortunately it is copyrighted.

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#3

@SC1100 @Brahmali

In addition to the paper Ajahn Bramali mentioned, I think Ven Anālyo has spoken about this sutta in one of his older on-line course lectures, but I’m afraid I can’t tell you which one offhand. They are, however, freely available on the web.

If I’m remembering correctly, in addition to the point about the Jain teachings, Ven Anālayo also mentioned that neither the Chinese MĀ parallel nor a sutra quotation parallel in Tibetan makes this statement. The Pāli version also lacks several parts that the MĀ has and they also differ in other ways. He posited that there may have been a transmision error and also hypothesized that the original word in that sentence might have been paṭi­saṃ­ve­ditvā instead of appaṭi­saṃ­ve­ditvā (confusion between positives and negatives is apparently a common transmission error because of the way words are negated in Pāli.) His argument is much more detailed than my summary here though, so perhaps you could find the lecture or eventually read the paper. I found it really illuminating because, like you, I had also been puzzled by that statement. This is one of the amazing things about comparative studies of the early teachings–it can help makes sense of weird discrepancies.

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Harmlessness and Right Livelihood
#5

Hello Bhante and Linda/ Linda and Bhante,

Thanks for referring me to the Ven. Anālyo’s paper, I have read it.

We can see in Suttas Buddha refuted many times Jain’s belief. After attained enlightenment Buddha still experienced the result of his bad kamma. Wouldn’t it be peculiar if Buddha’s and his disciples’ enlightenment was influenced by Jain? This Sutta has been part of Pali Canon for long time, is there any reason for this? Does it mean most monastic members are not aware of this therefore is still included as part of Buddha’s teaching?

#6

Dear Bhante,
I would like to read the paper of Ven. Analayo but clicking the link you provided does not produce it. May be it may have been changed or whatever. Would you be please kind enough to provide me with a way to access this paper.
With Metta

#7

@Nimal
It sems this paper is not available due to copyright. However, if you’re interested you could listen to a lecture he gave on this sutta in one of his on-line courses. Go to lecture 9 on this link

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#8

Yes, I think the paper has been removed because of copyright.

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#9

I think that sutta is referring to paranibbana not nibbana and that there are no problems with it. We know that a normal person “is hit by an arrow (physical pain) and then quickly hit again by a second arrow (mental pain), while an arahant is only hit by a single arrow”.

We also know that all arahants experienced pain, that the 5 aggregates still existing represent “past kamma” and we know that an advanced person will experience bad kamma from the past in a less painful way. For example he might experience a beating instead of years in hell. Or he might experience an unpleasant obsessive/fearful thought instead of a beating, or very bad past kamma will manifest just as an obstacle/hidrance on his path, etc.

This sutta is trying to say that the person will have to experience all his past kamma (be it in a small way) until attaining paranibanna (and therefore escape all suffering not just mental suffering) and that there is no kamma that will “become defunct”. The kamma will all be experienced even though it will affect an advanced person in a very small way.

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#10

@Linda The link is inaccessible from my site. My browser complains about not being able to resolve agamaresearch.ddbc.edu.tw. Is it still accessible from your side? I hope it is not because the site is blocked by my ISP. Do you have any updated link?

#11

The paper appears to be available for free download as a chapter in Bhante Anālayo’s book Madhyama-āgama Studies (Dharma Drum, 2012). It begins on page 489.

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#12

Hi@WayChuang
The SC link doesn’t work for me either (@moderators, can you do anything about this?) But I’ve searched the web and here is a link to all his lectures on the e-learning courses he did 2011-14:

I’m not sure which series it’s in but I would assume the 2011 one, and according to my 2017 post above I said lecture 9, but I don’t have a way to confirm this without listening to the lecture now which I can’t do. If you can, post back here again if you find it, so others will also know.

I also see that @dougsmith has posted a link wher eyou can also read the paper.

PS oops, sorry, it appears the 2011-2014 lectures are not actually on the site I linked to above. The link for the files just goes back to the broken SC links. Hmm, here’s another I found. If you can’t find I will continue to look.

#13

Looks like the link was removed because…

:smiley:

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#14

Hi@faujidoc1, Yes the link to the original article was copyrighted and thus removed (though is now available as part of a book which can be downloaded–see @dougsmith above). What I was trying to find was the link to the actual lectures he gave in the courses and those were posted on SC quite some time ago. The lectures are not copyrighted but the link I gave back in Feb 2017 post above does not seem to work.

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#15

@WayChuang
OK, I’ve now found the on-line link to the lectures that works.

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#16

Thank you very much, Sister @Linda. Sadhu, sadhu, sadhu