Is 'lajjiniyo' wholesome shame?

Translations
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English is severely lacking in words with positive connotations for shame. I think that this is what has me stumped.

backstory two (or more) monastics arrive at a monastery, a nun and her chaperone(s). She is looking for a suitable place to stay.

This is the context of the translation I’m looking at:

Tā ce ‘‘sādhu, ayyā, idāni mayampi sajjhāyissāma, dhammaṃ sossāma, gacchatha tumhe’’ti vatvā saṅgahaṃ karonti , ārādhikā ca honti saṅgāhikā lajjiniyo, tā kopetvā aññattha na gantabbaṃ.

if they say ‘Excellent, Venerable, we shall now recite and listen to the Dhamma together; you may go,’ and they provide help, being agreeable, supportive, and lajjiniyo, then one should not provoke them nor go elsewhere.

it then goes on to say

However, if the nuns are lajjiniyo but not supportive, one is permitted to go elsewhere. Even if the nuns are not lajjiniyo but are supportive, one is permitted to go elsewhere.

Sace pana lajjiniyo honti, na saṅgāhikāyo; aññattha gantuṃlabbhati.
Sacepi alajjiniyo honti, saṅgahaṃ pana karonti; tāpi pariccajitvā aññattha gantuṃ labbhati.

Would it be acceptible to use the term ‘respectful’ in this situation? Ashamed or modest, which are the usual dictionary translations doesn’t really make any sense here.

EDITED to add more pali for context.

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Can you please let us know where the quote is from?

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It’s from deep in the commentaries. I’d rather not go off topic (and it will happen) by bringing up where. Sorry

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Bhante Sujato and Thanissaro Bhikkhu both have “scrupulous” for lajjī at AN 10.176

Ajahn Brahmali has the clunkier “have a sense of conscience” at Pj2

Why does “modest” not work?

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Also a few more words for you to pick outside “conscientious” and “scrupulous”:

“upright” or “virtuous” or “rectitude” or “probity” or “conscionable”

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I am not an academic nor learned as the respondents. My lay impression is that it singles out the Nuns and it may not be a subject suitable, or would cause shame, or embarrassment. Obviously not a translator, purely a sense of occasion. Why not modest?

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According to dpd, the commentaries gloss lajji with hiri

Commentary (SNa) lajjī 'ti hirimā. lajjīgahaṇena c’ettha ottappam’pi gahitam’eva hoti

Conscionable seems like it’s in the ballpark .

To me, modesty brings to mind Victorian dress and all sorts of externally imposed ideas on how a woman ‘should’ be. Alternately it brings up something like ‘he spoke very modestly about his achievements’. Which would be a kind of humility.

Maybe it is the former of these two kinds of modesty? Lajjiniyo pops up in the bhikkhuni Pāṭimokkha several times. I just have never really wrapped my head around it.

ETA: propriety?

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Just as an aside, the words lāja and lajjā are still used in India in a few different contexts and modesty is quite a common context. lajjā is what makes one blush. lāja can also mean maintaining honor and dignity when used in the context of family or clan. In its current usage, the word lāja is often used in conjunction with the word sharam, which means shame (lāja-sharam).

Incidentally, the so called “touch-me-not” plant, the one that folds up and droops when touched, is also called lajjā plant or more stylistically, lājavanti.

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Thanks for the modern context. I was hoping that there might be one. Even if it’s not the best thing to go by sometimes.

What you explain is quite similar to how I understand hiri, which also has the idea of what would make one blush.

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In Sinhala there is ලජ්ජා/ලැජ්ජා lajjā/læjja that (as I understand) can be used for both shame at having done something wrong as well as shyness (e.g. to speak in front of a large group).

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Lajjā (a word generated from the dhātu √lajj) can have multiple meanings outside this particular context (including shame, modesty etc) but here does not mean propriety. Lajjā in this context usually is more like scruples or qualms or compunctions or conscience. Lajjiniyo (fem-nom-plural) is people with lajjā, plural of lajjinī - masc would be lajjī.

Propriety means, on the other hand, having a sense of right action vs wrong action i.e. knowing what is wrong action from what is right action. Having known that, it is lajjā that prevents one from carrying out the wrong action (for fear/disgust of the possible outcome).

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I’m so appreciative of everyone who’s engaged in this discussion. It has made it a lot clearer why scrupulous or contentious ‘conscientious’ are pretty accurate choices for this kind of shame.

Although I had the ‘vibe’ for what the bhikkhunis might be doing, I had to think about it within the context of what was being shared here, and how someone might judge their action upon arrival to a monastery.

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I assume you meant conscientious? :face_with_hand_over_mouth:

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Dear Venerable,

In Parivāra Pāli (Pvr12) we find a verse describing “lajjī puggalo”:

They do not intentionally commit offenses,

Sañcicca āpattiṁ nāpajjati,

Nor do they hide them,

Āpattiṁ na parigūhati;

Nor do they follow a wrong course—

Agatigamanaṁ na gacchati,

Such people are called conscientious.

Ediso vuccati lajjīpuggalo.

Hope that helps,

with mettā

Bhikkhu Animitta

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Thank you venerable. Very helpful. :folded_hands:t2:

:flushed_face: yes

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Exactly that’s what ලැජ්ජා lajja means in Sinhala… shame for having done something wrong as well as shyness

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