SuttaCentral
A talk by Bhante Joe drawing on EBT materials to discuss assertions such as that one shouldn’t attempt satipatthana, or other, meditation until one is close to stream entry or that the gradual training should be seen as a linear process, with each stage mastered before the next is attempted. In brief, he disagrees with those assertions.
Video, including transcript and some discussion in the comments:
Audio:
Question what is the definition of stream enterer?
Is it one who has dhamma eye open (aka stream enterer Path, Magga) or is it stream enterer (fruit, phala) which can only achieved after magga has acquired.
From sutta and vinaya, there has been none that acquire dhamma eye opening from meditation. So, next quesion to ask is:
Is it possible for one who hasn’t acquired the path (magga) do satiphattana or anapanasati to gain anagami fruit or arahant fruit? Because the minimum of satipatthana is anagami fruit here and now as described in DN 22.
Anyone who develops these four kinds of mindfulness meditation in this way for seven years can expect one of two results:
Yo hi koci, bhikkhave, ime cattāro satipaṭṭhāne evaṁ bhāveyya
sattavassāni, tassa dvinnaṁ phalānaṁ aññataraṁ phalaṁ pāṭikaṅkhaṁenlightenment in this very life, or if there’s something left over, non-return.
I’ve never heard this before! Who is of that view? And how would one get close to stream entry without meditating??
Hi Bhante,
It’s the view from the Hillside Hermitage (Ven Nyanamoli - not the 1950s one…) and others:
For example, this essay by Ven Anīgha
Prior to the Right View, instead of your practice consisting of cultivating what you currently think or were told mindfulness is, for example, it should revolve around questioning and revising your interpretation of what mindfulness is. Unless you’re already a sotāpanna, you need to be ready to scrap all of your assumptions about the Dhamma, down to the most basic and elemental, and start from square one as many times as it takes. And this is not just a theoretical affair: it’s a training too,[13] just not the one most people necessarily want to do even though it’s the one they really need.
[13]Such rectification of views can only take place on the basis of purification of mind, which is in turn enabled by virtue and restraint, i.e. not engaging in greedy, averse, or distracting actions by body, speech, or mind throughout your daily life. There is next to no intrinsic overlap between this and becoming skilled in concentration techniques, conventionally regarded as the means for mental purification.
Of this by Ven Nyanamoli:
Mindfulness of Breathing and Calming of Aversion https://www.hillsidehermitage.org/teachings/audio-transcript-essays/
If you overcome all sensuality and subdue all of the patigha that you have towards your own senses and towards anything or anyone in the world, present, past or future, then you will be ready to follow the Buddha’s detailed instructions on anapanasati. You will also know exactly what he means, otherwise, you will be doing his instructions with sensuality and as a method that you think will result in a “Greater sensual pleasure for me!”. Any greatness of mindfulness of breathing can only be developed upon complete surmounting of sensuality or overcoming the five lower fetters.
Of course, that virtue and abandoning of sensuality are essential to the path is not in question. Every teacher I have worked with has emphasised that. However, they have also emphasised the non-linearity of the process — virtue and sense restraint feeds into the meditation practice and vice versa.
As Bhante Joe says towards the end of the talk (edited from the automatic transcript):
There’s an intimate connection between meditation practice and virtue and both of them feed back into one another. If you are virtuous then it feeds into your meditation. If you meditate that can feed into your efforts to develop your virtue better, to become more sensitive to when you’re doing something immoral or something moral. It can also feed into your ability to focus enough to study the various rules so it’s not an escape. You can’t think that you’re going to murder people and then go on a meditation retreat and just escape that. It doesn’t work. You’re going to have a pretty rough meditation retreat and you’re probably going to want to leave it. So it’s not an escape. It’s not like doing drugs or distracting yourself with TV or something. It’s not something you you you can really use to run away from your problems because when you sit there with the mind focusing on the breath or another topic that the Buddha recommended, you’re there with your mind and you’re there with these thoughts that come up — remorse or whatever. It might be over bad things that you’ve done and the intention to do bad things blocks further progress in meditation. It’s a block to further progress in meditation. It’s a wrong intention.
Just to wrap everything up to bring everything together, if a person develops this view that they shouldn’t practice meditation till they’ve totally mastered virtue they’re cutting themself off from a number of different tools that work synergistically together to develop wholesome qualities and abandon unwholesome ones.
Ah, thanks.
I’d actually agree with that. But I’d say it’s precisely by trying to meditate and failing that we are made (painfully, intimately) aware of the gaps in our virtue, intent, and restraint.
After a basic proficiency in concentration you do have to start doing Vipassanā. But getting to a basic level of Samatha proficiency usually takes people a lot of work and time!
I have noticed a trend where monks who did samatha for years will finally start doing vipassanā and get results very quickly. They tend to then discount the value of their years of samatha and think “ah! vipassanā is the true way!” And monks who did vipassanā for years and weren’t getting anywhere with it will eventually switch to practicing samatha and then go very fast. They will then teach that vipassanā is wrong practice and that samatha is all you need! Both, of course, misunderstand their own practice, as the Buddha taught us that both samatha and vipassanā are necessary.
Perhaps this monk fell into the first of these misunderstandings? Or perhaps he already had samatha proficiency from a past-life?
In any case, yes, I agree with the rebuttal here. Thanks for posting it! 
According to the Sotapatti Samyutta of SN/SA, the stream-entry path is mainly with a set of four qualities, called limbs of stream-entry (sotapattiyangani). For example, at SN 55.16-17 and their Chinese counterpart SA 836, the four are given as:
Definite faith (aveccappasada) in the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha, and noble morality (ariyakanta-sila ‘morality loved by the noble ones’).
For a comparison of the Sotapatti Samyutta of SN and SA versions, see pp. 228-235 in The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism by Choong Mun-keat.
“One thing, mendicants, when developed and cultivated leads to the realization of the fruit of stream-entry … once-return … non-return … perfection. What one thing? Mindfulness of the body. This one thing, when developed and cultivated, leads to the realization of the fruit of stream-entry … once-return … non-return … perfection.”
Many such rebuttals have themselves received further rebuttals from Ven. Anīgha on the Hillside Hermitage subreddit. The most major of such arguments can be found in particular in the subreddit-pinned thread of Notable posts and replies by Bhikkhu Anīgha. Anyone who wishes to discuss these matters of controversy and receive direct replies from official members of Hillside Hermitage would best direct themselves to that subreddit, though most common arguments have already been had and can be found in the linked pinned thread as mentioned before.
Part of the transition from student to (effective) teacher (of anything) is the recognition that what they experienced as the key obstacles/solutions will often not be the key obstacles/solutions for their students. Obviously, the Buddha was an expert at varying his instructions to be of benefit for the particular student at the particular time.
The sutta clearly stated Fruit (phala) of the 4 nobles. The fruit only can achieved by one who already at Magga (path) at minimum, sotapatti (stream enterer Path) such as dhammanusari or saddhanusari. One who already in the path, will achieve fruit at the maximum by end of this life. There is sutta stated this clearly.
I havent seen any sutta that say a regular folk (puthujjana) can achieve noble fruit from satipatthana before the path, magga first.
Because the arising of right view has 2 conditions:
There is no meditation requirement for right view. No sutta that show Buddha ask someone to meditate first, but he did ask to hear his true dhamma so one can understand fully.
Even in anapanasati sutta, MN 118… it clearly says the minimum is sotapanna …. Who is worthy of offerings dedicated to the gods.
In this Saṅgha there are mendicants who, with the ending of three fetters are stream-enterers, not liable to be reborn in the underworld, bound for awakening.
…
Late Bhante Dhammavuddho also explain it in his talk before.
I watched the OP video by Bhante Joe and agree with his interpretations. I don’t necessarily agree with the notion that a Buddhist lay person shouldn’t meditate until close to stream entry. After all, when is one close to stream entry? Hearing the Dhamma? Hearing enough of the Dhamma to have Right View? When in the N8FP is it time for a lay person to start meditating?
The Noble Eightfold Path (SN 45.8)
Right view
Right intention
Right speech
Right action
Right livelihood
Right effort
Right mindfulness
Right samadhi
Many people meditate without knowledge of the Dhamma and so it doesn’t lead them to stream entry. The Buddha-to-be meditated plenty in his quest. However, his learning from Alrara Kalama and Uddaka Ramaputta didn’t lead to stream entry and, as Bhikkhu Bodhi says: “…they didn’t have the opportunity to hear the dharma after the Buddha became enlightened. So he wanted to share his dharma with them but they passed away from the human realm and they were reborn each in a different formless realm, and so the Buddha couldn’t teach them.”
In SN47.4 the Buddha says that the new monks, those recently gone forth “should be encouraged, supported, and established in the four kinds of mindfulness meditation” and he specifically distinguishes them from the trainees (sekhas, those who are sotāpanna magga phala or higher attainment but not arahant).
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If you are any monk status, please do whatever it takes to reach arahanthood, or the minimum of non returner.
What im concerning is why every householder nowadays being trained similar to a monk right away such as meditation without hearing true dhamma first or learning from sutta.
Btw, new monk definition from Buddha is someone who has heard teaching about Buddha and able to renounce all of regular householder status.
Consider when a Realized One arises in the world , perfected, a fully awakened Buddha, accomplished in knowledge and conduct, holy, knower of the world, supreme guide for those who wish to train, teacher of gods and humans, awakened, blessed. He has realized with his own insight this world—with its gods, Māras, and divinities, this population with its ascetics and brahmins, gods and humans—and he makes it known to others. He proclaims a teaching that is good in the beginning, good in the middle, and good in the end, meaningful and well-phrased. And he reveals a spiritual practice that’s entirely full and pure.
A householder hears that teaching , or a householder’s child, or someone reborn in a good family. They gain faith in the Realized One and reflect: ‘Life at home is cramped and dirty, life gone forth is wide open. It’s not easy for someone living at home to lead the spiritual life utterly full and pure, like a polished shell. Why don’t I shave off my hair and beard, dress in ocher robes, and go forth from the lay life to homelessness?’
After some time they give up a large or small fortune, and a large or small family circle. They shave off hair and beard, dress in ocher robes, and go forth from the lay life to homelessness.
…
Thanks to everyone for such a thoughtful discussion. I’m still learning, but it seems to me that the Buddha often encouraged mindfulness practices quite early, even for those newly ordained (like in SN 47.4). Could it be that meditation, even if imperfect at first, plays a role in helping a person recognize the Dhamma when they hear it, rather than something that only follows after full right view?
A followup talk: “Did the Buddha Teach Intense Focus On a Single Object?”
This video is a sutta study evaluating whether the meditation method of intense focus on a single object, such as the breath, is recommended by the Buddha.
It is a follow-up to the video “Is Meditation Only for Stream Enterers or Those Who Are Close?” In particular, it builds on the points made in that video—that the Buddha did teach the Satipaṭṭhānas to laypeople, and breath meditation is part of that framework.
Video:
Audio:
Blockquote
i agree that this kind of misunderstanding arises from practitioners not understanding their own practice. i’d go even further that those who might make such arguments don’t understand what the buddha taught.
in this modern age we seem to have a very narrow definition of jhana (the four form and four formless states). however, it doesn’t seem that that’s what the buddha solely considered jhana.
the finger snap suttas make note of multiple types of reflections and practices that for the buddha, constitute jhana, even if held only for the time it takes to snap one’s fingers.
https://suttacentral.net/an1.394-574/en/sujato
these reflections and practices include the brahmaviharas, the four foundations, right effort, right action and speech, a perception of impermanence - if held:
even as long as a finger-snap, they are called
a mendicant who does not lack absorption
bhikkhu arittajjhāno viharati
or literally:
a bhikkhu which abides not without jhana
thus, even for those who claim non-attained individuals should not practice meditation, but should instead practice perhaps some reflection on impermanence, of practice right speech, etc, they are actually advocating that people practice jhana - they just don’t realise that the buddha considers such practices jhana.