Is Nibbana different from the goal of the annihilationnists?

[anon29387788]

@Jacques

train of thought

This reminded me of the freight train I mentioned! Lol…

Yes, sounds like an interesting strategy but I must admit I find far more usefulness in perceiving meditation practice within the parameters of the 3rd Noble Truth, as opposed to the 2nd as I find it’s more about the actual practice of letting go.

@Jacques

‘It’s like this; it feels like this to want to get rid of something;

So for me, when I do this (regarding your quote above) I feel like the “work” that ocurrs falls within the parameters of the 3rd Truth. If I actively try and direct my mind towards working within the 2nd one, I find I simply degenerate into discursive thought, which I find doesn’t really scratch the surface and is unsatisfying; a bit like someone looking for a deep tissue massage but only getting a very light rub down!

That is, for me, the sense is that a genuine feeling of letting go must occur, before any truly useful glimmers of understanding can ocurr about the 2nd Noble Truth; I find it’s not useful if it just remains an observation that doesn’t provide practical applications in terms of an easier life and better mental health and I feel, for me that is, this happens when I put the effort into doing nothing, rather than seeking to understand. I find that doing nothing, in it’s own time, unravels knots and folds that obscured understanding and when this happens, understanding (at my lowly unawakened level) simply presents itself. I don’t have to go looking for it.

Perhaps this is one of the reasons why the 4 Noble Truths are Noble; because they are simply there and we don’t have to actually look for them. I’m reminded now of that part of the recollection of the Dhamma that most Buddhists know and chant, where the Dhamma ‘invites one to come and see’ and ‘leads onward to liberation’…how can it not? When the Truths at its heart are Noble and are just there, waiting for us to learn how to be still.

At the end of the day, for me, it comes down to a realisation that in learning more and more about how to be still, I’m rewarded with unexpected, surprising gems of lessons and learning that I would never have (discursively) ever dreamed of (discursively) thinking about.

I really like your strategy Jacques. I think it’s a really useful one. I guess I’ve shared here an adaptation of it, which I find works for me.

[Nimal]

@Jacques

When we get disillusioned with trying to become something, then there is the desire to get rid of things. So we contemplate vibhava tanha, the desire to get rid of:

When I read the above quote I get the feeling that the term “vibhava tanha” has been misunderstood. My doubt is even further enhanced when I see the too frequent use of “I” such as “I” want to do this and “I” want to do that.

If my doubt has any sound basis this might help.

Vibhava tanha is the desire for non-becoming. In DO becoming comes after clinging. It is due to ignorance that the individual tries to avoid becoming and his ignorance is the personality view. If he correctly grasp the DO then he understands “I” as a mere convention and then he realizes Nibbana (sotapanna) here and now. That is the end of all theories such as annihilation etc.
With Metta

[Russell]

Dear @Jacques

Nibbāna to me is the complete stopping of a process inherently full of suffering. It’s an annihilation in a way, because it is the annihilation of everything unskillful and everything that can lead to existence. What is existence anyway nothing but birth, old age, getting sick, then finally death? And in between birth and death, one goes through the process of wanting, not wanting, separation from what is pleasant, experiencing what is not pleasant, without really having any control of those? Up and down, we go riding through situations we can’t barely have any effect on. What do we really strive for in this existence? We have to feed ourselves, get shelter, care for the body, work so hard to make a living, accomplish many things all to be left behind at death? What is the point really? To exist we have to compete with other living beings for the planet’s resources. It’s a vicious cycle really, this saṃsara. The sad part is, we’re not victims of the process. We’re the culprits.

As a parent, it pains me to know that my son will go through the same thing, Most parents would prevent any sort of suffering to fall on their child. But parents can only do so little. The reality is life is full of suffering and it’s always been that way. Even if you’re a wholesome person, you will still encounter suffering. The only thing that I can do is condition him enough so that he will gravitate towards the Dhamma when he grows up.

Just my thoughts.

Happy vassa!

in mettā,
russ

[Erika_ODonnell]

@anon29387788

That is, for me, the sense is that a genuine feeling of letting go must occur, before any truly useful glimmers of understanding can ocurr about the 2nd Noble Truth

I think letting go gives a good sense about the first noble truth. The process of meditation is basically the temporary cessation of the five aggregates.

If that cessation is the most blissful thing you’ve ever experienced, of course that means the five aggregates are literally suffering.

If having it gone is better, you’re chipping away at a fetter.

Anyway, I’ve been thinking about this analogy for ‘letting go’ that I’d like to share.

Letting go is like weight loss. Weight loss can start with the desire to simply lose weight, but putting effort into the desire “May I lose weight! May I be thin!” will not produce the desired result.

In order to lose weight you need the understanding that your weight is related (through cause and effect) to how much you eat. The effort actually goes into managing your calories, or being mindful not to over-eat at every meal.

In the same way ‘letting go’ starts off with desire “I want to let go!” but putting effort into that desire “May I let go! May I cease!” doesn’t do anything useful.

I think the missing ingredient for many (including myself) is the lack of understanding about where to put the effort. As far as I can tell, the effort actually goes into purifying the mind with virtuous and generous behavior.

‘Letting go’ is related through cause and effect to how much you virtue.

Anyway, I guess this is sort of a convoluted example to think about the relationship between desire, understanding and effort

[Jacques]

[quote=“Kay, post:41, topic:3165”]
That is, for me, the sense is that a genuine feeling of letting go must occur, before any truly useful glimmers of understanding can ocurr about the 2nd Noble Truth; I find it’s not useful if it just remains an observation that doesn’t provide practical applications in terms of an easier life and better mental health and I feel, for me that is, this happens when I put the effort into doing nothing, rather than seeking to understand. I find that doing nothing, in it’s own time, unravels knots and folds that obscured understanding and when this happens, understanding (at my lowly unawakened level) simply presents itself. I don’t have to go looking for it.

OK. But just to be clear, by “doing nothing” are you referring to A. Brahm’s approach of doing nothing and letting go in meditation? Or do you mean something else. You mention “practical applications in terms of an easier life and better mental health.” Are you implying a means of approach in daily life (not just on the cushion)?

Could you elaborate, Kay? (Yes, I see the absurdity of explaining how to do nothing:smirk:)

[anon29387788]

@Erika_ODonnell @Jacques

@Erika_ODonnell

I think the missing ingredient for many (including myself) is the lack of understanding about where to put the effort. As far as I can tell, the effort actually goes into purifying the mind with virtuous and generous behavior.

I quite agree…

@Jacques

OK. But just to be clear, by “doing nothing” are you referring to A. Brahm’s approach of doing nothing and letting go in meditation?

Yes, indeed.

I’ve heard again and again that whilst one may cultivate different aspects of the 8 Fold Path at different times, there is nevertheless a reason for their sequence; the purification of the first, leads to the purification of the second and so on. Thus by the time one gets to Right Effort, I mean really gets to it, one has purified one’s View to a high degree and purified ones Virtue to a high degree; so these are in place as a solid foundation and one doesn’t need to worry about them, they’re just there as a solid support; much like one doesn’t think about the earth holding one up, it just does and it’s just there and one just goes about the business of walking upon it.

So with View and Virtue as a foundation, Effort can be acted upon more correctly. I remember Ajahn Brahm talking about the word vayama (effort) and stating that somewhere in the EBTs (in the Vinaya I think he said) there is a place where this word vayama is used in reference to someone standing still and waiting. This, according to Ajahn Brahm, points to a very different take on the word vayama. Perhaps then, the English word “effort” is a rather misleading translation or at least, needs some qualification. As far as meditation and indeed “insight practice” is concerned, for me, the effort required is the effort to be still. And really, it makes sense within the larger picture of Buddhism; samsara is about movement, nibbana is about the stilling of that movement.

@Jacques

You mention “practical applications in terms of an easier life and better mental health.” Are you implying a means of approach in daily life (not just on the cushion)?

So I’m referring back to what I said earlier about how understandings come without any particular mental activity which invites them to do so - I don’t actively bring something up (unless perhaps I’m practicing metta bhavana or something like that) or use any discursive thought in a deliberate, intentional fashion. Rather, the very act of doing nothing and being with whatever I’m experiencing, and yes, it might be that I’m experiencing desire (e.g. when I really want to get up off my cushion and do something else!) but regardless, I just allow it to be and also, perhaps crucially, I allow it to go. Occasionally, I automatically remember that I’m able to substitue a wholesome state for an unwholesome one. This doesn’t always happen as it’s not my general habitual tendency…however…I’m celebrating the fact that it’s started happening a bit (Dhamma conditioning kicking in slowly!!) And sometimes, I sit being with a wholesome state - I’m finding this happens more than it used to (another cause for celebration ) Regardless, I’ve been training myself to do nothing, to not interfere, to leave things alone. In doing this I’ve noticed a number of positive things have begun to happen:

1.) Unwholesome states often disappear and I’m left with a greater sense of peace
2.) Wholesome states seem to blossom when left alone…generally in the direction of peace, happiness or love
3.) Sometimes, little understandings about myself, my hindrances, my life’s journey and how these things fit into the Practice and into the Dhamma, just pop up out of what feels like nowhere.

Due to these 3 things, I have found that over a number of years, my sila has improved a little bit and that my faith in the Dhamma increases; because of this way of Practicing with effort and mindfulness, they feed back into all the different elements of the 8 Fold Path that relate to virtue and purifiy them further; and they also feed back into and purifiy View. And so of course, due to all this, a sort of cycle of purification seems to take effect, a gradual, very slow cycle; so the foundation of view and virtue becomes more solid, and effort becomes more effortless, mindfulness more pleasant and samadhi begins to become a possibility.

@Jacques I hope that helps in clarifying what I meant.

@Jacques

(Yes, I see the absurdity of explaining how to do nothing:smirk:)

Lol…I don’t think it’s absurd to explain how to do nothing I think it’s kind of cool and is what this whole Buddha-Dhamma is about.

[Jacques]

Great job, Kay

In the same vein, you’ll probably like this text by Ajahn Brahm (if you haven’t already read it):

http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebmed055.htm

[anon29387788]

Thanks Jacques

@Jacques

Using non-self to let go

I don’t think I’ve come across this one. Thanks so much for the link. It looks like a powerful piece.

[anon29387788]

I just finished reading the article. Phew! It was really cool. Thanks again!

I noticed it was from a lay meditation retreat in 1997. Quite some time ago!

[Timothy]

One means of letting go which I don’t see much mention of would be to start with the course desires, such as music, movies, alcohol, drugs, worry over looks, lack of contentment for all the little things which we think bring about comfort and ease, observing others, etc. We start with the gross defilements, and work towards the subtle ones. Before there can be any mental letting go, we must condition the mind by letting go of the things we enjoy and the things we hate, every moment that we can, to learn to go without. This creates a cascade effect where the more you let go of, the easier it is to let go, hence the monastics, who let go of all wordly possessions, and can then begin working on the real letting go.

With Metta,

:anjal: